Post
Topic
Board Altcoin Discussion
Re: Block lattice
by
TPTB_need_war
on 14/11/2015, 11:06:27 UTC
design—for Byzantine fault tolerant consensus

There is no such thing as Byzantine fault tolerance since the byzantine problem is stated in terms of separation of communication a.k.a. network partitioning.  Only after partitions have been merged can a final conclusion be reached for instance bitcoin isn't tolerant against partitioning since if the network was partitioned and each separate segment was generate separate block chains, a conclusion as to which is the longest couldn't be reached until the partitions were merged and the results compared, hence it would no longer by a byzantine problem.  Please read up more on the topic before commenting on them.

Do NOT again write an absurd condescending remark that assumes I hadn't yet researched the fundamental concepts.

Try to remain respectful please (and leave the ad hominem diarrhea aside) as we had been up thread.

I have no idea what rational basis you have told yourself to justify assuming I don't understand the definition of Byzantine fault tolerance. How could I possibly be commenting with so much technical knowledge in your thread if I hadn't yet researched the fundamental concepts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault_tolerance

Quote
Byzantine fault
 Any fault presenting different symptoms to different observers
Byzantine failure
 The loss of a system service due to a Byzantine fault in systems that require consensus

Your understanding of Byzantine fault tolerance is incorrect. Per the definition above, Bitcoin delivers the same expectations (symptoms) for CAP (consistency, access, and partition tolerance) to all observers which are participants in the longest chain partition. The probability of a failure decreases probabilistically over time as the number of confirmations on the longest chain increases. There are degenerate cases such as the 51% attack where Byzantine failure occurs.

Note the double-spending on a minority chain is not a Byzantine failure, because by definition the minority chain is invalid.

There is no such thing as absolute anything in the universe, thus arguing that Byzantine fault tolerance is not universal is a vacuous assertion. Byzantine fault tolerance is defined for a system and the defined objectivity of the system, not for universal absolutism.

, so I have now expended the time to research, think, and hopefully correctly define it.  Your design's frame-of-reference for Byzantine fault tolerant consensus is majority of the vote by the "voters" which have locked a suitable amount of coins (value). We must determine the (game theory) objectivity of this frame-of-reference and the impacts within the CAP theorem.

Again, the CAP theorem states that all three states cannot simultaneously be achieved so by the nature that RaiBlocks, in addition to any crypto currency, does not claim it can operate while partitioned, this means at most we're claiming 2 out of 3 which by definition satisfies the CAP theorem and no cryptocurrency out there is violating it.  Please read more before commenting.

This ad hominem noise again.

Yet another vacuous argument demonstrating that you do not understand that Bitcoin is partition tolerant within its Byzantine fault tolerant objectivity. Byzantine fault tolerance doesn't mean that CAP has to be fulfilled for those observers who are ignoring the longest chain rule or who are unwilling to accept the probabilitistic nature of the expectations (and thus the fault tolerance). Within Bitcoin's objectivity of the longest chain, all three of the CAP attributes are attained. And my criticisms of your design are about its ill-defined objectivity.

The continuous citation of the CAP theorem is ridiculous.  BitCoin does not have partition tolerance according to the cap theorem "the system continues to operate despite arbitrary partitioning due to network failures"  BitCoin does not operate in the presence of arbitrary network failures, this it categorically wrong.  No cryptocurrency can operate while partitioned, they can recover from partitions but they cannot operate while partitioned.  CAP does not apply to any cryptocurrency ever, repeating it at all is absolutely absurd.

Bitcoin does "continue to operate despite arbitrary partitioning due to network failures".

Again you conflate the double-spend on a forked network in your mind a claimed refutation of CAP, because you assume CAP is only useful in an absolute frame-of-reference. But absolute frames-of-reference do not exist in the universe. And this shows you do not understand the definition of "Byzantine fault tolerance", because it only applies to the nodes on each of the forked networks as to whether the objectivity of the system has remained intact and the nodes can continue to operate within that defined objectivity.

Essentially what you are trying to say with your design and your arguments in this thread, is there is no possible objective frame-of-reference, because there never can exist an absolute one. You conflate absolutism with relative objectivity (which btw is all we have in our universe, because nothing is absolute).

At least Bitcoin achieves CAP up to the limitation that networking partitioning can fork the Bitcoin network and the participants on each fork can continue to operate. Whereas, your design doesn't even achieve assurances of objectivity even without network partitioning.

I do not appreciate your ad hominem accusations claiming/implying that I am generally not correct in my logic because it is another attack on my person instead of refuting a stated technical issue. (Nothwithstanding that my logic is correct and you are not skillful enough to discern it yet)

Also you conflate a) refuting a stated fact; with b) making a statement about a person's need to read before commenting. The former is not ad hominem, the latter is ad hominem. Period.

Edit: also you are assuming CAP only applies to the physical network partitioning, but it also applies to logical partitioning. Bitcoin is resilient to logical partitions (forks) because of the longest chain rule. Your design is not analogously resilient, which monsterer and I have explained.