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Board Development & Technical Discussion
Re: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another?
by
sturle
on 29/01/2016, 22:08:28 UTC
No, miners don't matter.  If a miner break consensus, users and merchants won't accept their blocks.  They will just make themselves irrelevant, mining worthless coins.
Nobody wants to have software with critical bugs.  It is quite easy to achieve consensus about that.  I remember the one back in 2010 when someone discovered they could make 184 billion BTC for themselves in the coinbase transaction due to an integer overflow bug.  That one was resolved quickly as well.  In both cases the hard fork was caused by an unintentional bug.  Bitcoin is still i beta.
Nobody also wants to be on the minority branch. Gavin just did a great piece about what would happen if the network split 80/20.
Check it out:
http://gavinandresen.ninja/minority-branches (TL;DR: Nothing would really happen)
Many people, me too, think he is wrong.  I will stick to Bitcoin, and if people will exchange the bitcoins they bought from me to some altcoin, I don't have any problems with that.  In the past I got many requests to sell litecoin, primecoin, scamcoin and whatevercoin.  My answer has always been the same: I buy and sell bitcoin, and if you want something else, it is very easy to exchange the bitcoins to something else elsewhere.  As you see from the short list of businesses wanting to switch to an altcoin based on different consensus rules, the great majority will stick to Bitcoin.

I think many miners will switch back to Bitcoin as well, since their newly minted coins will only be accepted by a very few merchants.  If an exchange try to sell the altcoin as Bitcoin, they will certainly get sued by people who discover the coin they bought won't be accepted by merchants accepting Bitcoin.  This can lead to severe losses.  I regularly buy lumps of 100 BTC which people send to my autobuy system with no prior notice.  If someone send some altcoin to the same address because the address format is the same, they may have lost a lot of money.  100 classiccoins, unlimitedcoins, bitpaycoins, XTcoins or whatevertheyarecalledthisweekcoins will probably not be worth anyting, but you get my point.  People are going to lose a lot of money on the confusion.  As a bonus to miners coming back to Bitcoin, the difficulty will get significantly lower.

2. Lately "consensus" means whatever Adam Back wants it to mean. Check out these links:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/434spq/adam_back_on_twitter_understand_bitcoin_social/
https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/692756252418576384
Quote from: adam3us
.@jnxpn understand #bitcoin social contract: majority MUST NOT be able to override minority. that is how political money fails. #consensus
Irrelevant.  My dictionary still have the same defintition of consensus as it always had.
Let's get on the same page. What actually is your definition of consensus ?
My Websters Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language defines consensus as a "general agreement or concord".  In Bitcoin this agreement is defined in the software.

So basically now he claims that consensus is what minority (Blockstream) wants. He has lost it and is completely mad with power.
I don't see how what you think someone else claim is relevant at all here.  (Read again – what he wrote is not what you think he claims.)
Nope, I read it again - with context and I still think my argument stands.
Please explain your point further because I don't understand what you think I am misunderstanding.
You misinterpret the general agreement among all bitcoin nodes as a wish from a specific "minority".   Which is actually the opposite of what he actually wrote:  "majority MUST NOT be able to override minority"  I.e. consensus is not what a minority wants, neither what a majority wants.  Consensus is based on the agreement which was there from the beginning.  Neither Bitstream or any short list of merchants, can overrule the general agreement which define Bitcoin and the bitcoin blockchain.  Neither can a majority.

Bitcoin is built on some hard rules which cannot change unless all users agree to the change.  As long as some (or in this case most) users don't agree to change the rules, it is impossible.  You can only add new more restrictive rules, not change or remove existing rules.  People who cannot live with the rules as they are, have to use something else.  There are plenty of altcoins to choose from, and it shouldn't be a problem to anyone.
Wait a minute... what exactly is your point ?
Are you trying to say that if 100% users don't agree to change, then the change cannot happen ? Am I getting this right ?
Correct within normal rounding rules.  (If one or two won't change, it probably doesn't matter much.  As long as there is a significant chance of an SPV client contacting those nodes, especially if they have any mining power behind them, the security of SPV wallets will be severely compromised.  But people shouldn't trust SPV clients anyway.)

Last time I remember, Bitcoin was all about what majority wants. When minority wants to change rules of the game then it is called a HARD FORK and they go their separate way.
I can never remember bitcoin beeing about what a majority wants.  Bitcoin wasn't designed that way.  Can I run a campaign to make 100 BTC extra for UNICEF?  Just 100 BTC?  That's not much, and I'm sure it will help a lot of children.  I will probably get at least as as many supporters as those who want to change the maximum block size rule.  Perhaps make it 1000 BTC.  Or even more.  It is a good cause.
You can do anything and you can even fork Bitcoin in any way you want.
If you can convince the majority of the network that your fork is the best and that giving 1000 BTC to poor children is the right choice and network will install your client then by all means - your client will be considered the "true" Bitcoin, and the previous client will be made obsolete and nobody will use it.
You don't get it.  Since this would change the general agreement, it would require cooperation from all bitcoin nodes.  Not just a majority.

However the probability you could pull something like this is almost equal to zero.
Are you telling me you don't support this!?  Why do you hate children?  Do you kill babies for a hobby? Shocked

The only change a majority can do, is to impose new rules, i.e. stricter rules which will be imposed on new blocks.  Blocks adhering to the new rule will still be valid to old nodes, but blocks may have to confirm to an extra rule to be accepted by upgraded nodes.  This is called a soft fork.  Soft forks are typically activated only after 95% of the hashpower enforce the new rules.  Otherwise false confirmations may show up to old nodes whenever an old node mine a block.
This is basically completely wrong and has no basis in anything. I don't think you understand what a soft fork and hard fork is.
Here is a pretty good explanation:
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/30817/what-is-a-soft-fork
Actually the explanation there is just a longer version of mine.  Read it again, and see if you can understand it.

In short, I would say that hard forks are the ones that split the network in 2 separate ones - old and new - and make a "clean cut", while soft forks "pretend" to all old clients that nothing has changed, so the old clients can keep working (but important: the old clients are not working 100% correctly while not knowing that anything happened).
So basically, hard fork is kind of more open and honest way of doing changes, while soft-fork is more of a "sneaky" way that makes a change and pretends that nothing has happened to the network.
ROFL!  Read it again.  "To implement a hardfork, without a blockchain-fork, all users must switch to the new protocol consensually."

How many bitcoin blockchains do you think is adequate?  At least we will get rid of SPV clients by hard forking into many chains, but unfortunately you would then have to rely on either wallets talking to some central trusted node, or that everyone run full nodes locked to one specific blockchain.  (You don't want to risk another chain to take over if they gain more mining power.)

Old nodes will work just fine after a softfork, but merchants should upgrade.  SPV clients are mostly safe after a softfork as well, but both old nodes and SPV clients may see unconfirmed transactions which aren't valid.  (In a hard fork the invalid transactions would confirm in some chains, and the SPV client will see it differently depending on which node it connects to.)