Quote from: CoinCube on September 17, 2017, 03:37:04 PM

Quote from: Hyperme.sh on September 16, 2017, 08:44:03 AM

The masses want a safe environment that allows them to steal from the system in a politically correct way which makes them feel smug about stealing. The power vacuum has always been that TPTB use the masses to attack their competitors and take control of the system, while feeding the masses the debt collectivist lie. Everyone is always trying to find a way to best game the system. Civilization is a crab bucket clusterfuck of defection.

I was asked via private message if I could refute the above quote.

@CoinCube and I were discussing the issue of cooperation and defection, with my stance being that perhaps decentralization technology supersedes religion because I argue the fundamental driver is economics, not ideology.

I will argue that religion was merely a way that societies were able to organize given the contention between labor and the capitalist as described at the above link. Civilization needed docile compliant fungible (replaceable) laborers and solid marriages to produce more such docile laborers. The superrationality emerged economically from the fact that those who didn't adopt it, were destroyed in failed civilizations. (we may have an analogous outcome coming to those who do not stop adopting ICOs)

However, the maximum division-of-labor and the Knowledge Age is ameliorating that mind programming (i.e. religion) paradigm. IOW, I claim humanity no longer needs to rely on close community, because we have the Internet to coordinate with similarly capable individuals. This highly rewards R strategy reproduction and discourages K strategy, because the offspring will find their randomized place in the soup of Knowledge Age production. Even if one tried to produce K strategy offspring highly trained for Knowledge Age skills, the technology is changing so rapidly that isn't possible to predict what training and skill set they will need. Math may not even be important any more in the future, if A.I. is able to do the math for us.

In terms of a shared set of values, I'm the dinosaur for wishing Indians shared my ancestors' values. The Knowledge Age is a multi-cultural world. Sorry to say, I think @CoinCube is trying to hang on to dying paradigms (both religion and the upper middle class American licensed-by-the-state bourgeoisie ... the future bourgeoisie will be independent of any State, religion, or culture).

The moral decay is a fact of thermodynamics (entropy). Decentralization paradigms are the only way to get sustainable cooperation (and avoid the tragedy-of-the-commons) in the Knowledge Age.

CoinCube, I want you to watch this and pay attention closely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kwF1MXavYs

Duterte warned George Soros that there is a bounty on his head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aoStEmNR0Y

Quote from: Hyperme.sh on September 19, 2017, 02:39:57 AM

Quote from: Yamifoud on September 19, 2017, 02:24:41 AM

There are so many black propaganda against crypto...

Is enforcement of securities regulation propaganda or reality?

You guys don't want the Koolaid greater fool punch bowl to run dry because your greed exceeds your ethics (you're stealing money from greater fools and know damn well that all of the ICOs are scams which produce nothing of merit which have any utility-of-significance other than harvesting greater fools). You're "rational actors" who defect from civilization and prefer a tragedy-of-the-commons. If you had any R&D of merit to fund, you'd care about the long-term legality of your development and thus do it with legal private placements or crowd equity that pay back legally issued tokens earned rather than creating illegal investment securities pump & dump tokens.

All the monetary claims on labor you've accumulated will be useless if civilization collapses into tragedy-of-the-commons Dark Age. I know you do not care and it isn't your concern. That is why we call it a tragedy-of-the-commons. You're "rational". Well rational only if you presume the authorities will not come after you ex post facto (i.e. later) for trading in and promoting MLM scams in defiance of MLM laws in some major countries and illegal investment securities.

The Shit Token is the epitome of daring the regulators to act. These guys think that disclaiming future profit is going to protect them from breaking the law. The economic reality is they are still selling and promoting an illegal investment security, because speculators will speculate on greater fools speculating.

Quote from: Hyperme.sh on September 19, 2017, 04:04:21 AM

Quote from: skyline247 on September 15, 2017, 11:55:08 PM

On one hand, ICOs are taking precious market cap from what could be invested into Bitcoin.

They're taking focus away from those who have genuine innovation, yet are totally ignored.

Quote from: skyline247 on September 15, 2017, 11:55:08 PM

On the other, they bring a whole new dimension to crypto that we have never seen before.

It is just such a shame they are almost always pump-and-dump scams. Undecided

Because those of us who want to build a long-term viable project, do not want to be involved with issuing/trading/promoting illegal MLM scams and illegal investment securities.

Regulators are going to need to send a lot of people to jail to get sanity back into crypto R&D. Yet I suspect TPTB are quite satisfied with allowing crypto to destroy itself with scams and render it's participants in jail after the global economic meltdown 2020ish.

Quote from: GodMode on September 17, 2017, 10:11:18 PM

If government doesn't get any profit from it, than it's a SCAM.

Yet regardless of whether securities regulation is dumb or beneficial, the fact is that those developers who are serious will not issue ICOs because of the legal uncertainty, thus predominantly the only ones issuing ICOs are scammers. Even if some few Ethereum, NEO, or Tezos developers might be sincere and skilled, the ones issuing the tokens for them are either well connected with the parasites you despise, else they have a criminal mindset and disregard securities regulation risk not only for themselves but also for all those who trade the tokens and for the future of the token itself.

Thus, iCOs are not helping to achieve any goal of defeating the parasites who control the governments, and instead of providing incrimination fuel for them to take control in the future.

@CoinCube continued to discuss in PMs:

Quote from: CoinCube on September 18, 2017, 02:27:58 AM

Yes they are. They need to be superrational to succeed and thrive. Until you can solve the prisoners dilemma you have not solved the fundamental problem but are playing with tangential issues.

Decentralization technology does help you solve this but not in the way you argue. It helps solve the problem by introducing transparency which helps the superrational identify each other and coordinate.

Transparency is the fundamental advance of our time as I noted in my table that you dislike.

Cycles of Contention

	Cycle #1	Cycle #2	Cycle #3	Cycle #4	Cycle #5	Cycle #6
Mechanism of Control	Knowledge of Evil	Warlordism	Holy War	Usury	Universal Surveillance	Hedonism
Rulers	The Strong	Despots	God Kings/Monarchs	Capitalists	Oligarchs (NWO)	Decentralized Government
Life of the Ruled	"Nasty, Brutish, Short"	Slaves	Surfs	Debtors	Basic Income Recipients	Knowledge Workers
Facilitated Advance	Knowledge of Good	Commerce	Rule of Law	Growth	Transparency	Ascesis

Ultimately the rational individuals destroy themselves just as rational nations do who abandon superrationality and descend into stealing and power vacuums. The most successful may succeed for a generation or two if they are top dog but they have locked themselves into a prisoners prisoners dilemma which can lead only to their distruction at the hands of someone more powerful or their taking the role of local top dog of a sinking ship eventually finding themselves utterly uncompetitive in an Information Age that rewards cooperation.

Quote from: CoinCube on September 18, 2017, 04:43:20 AM

You have my permission to post my reply above publically if you wish.

Quote from: CoinCube on September 18, 2017, 05:13:32 AM

Quote from: Hyperme.sh on September 18, 2017, 04:22:41 AM

Decentralization is more than just transparency. It's also a means of coordination. Transparency by itself doesn't solve coordination.

I mean decentralized ledger protocols are about coordination, not necessarily even transparency, as anonymity can hide information while still faciliating consensus about ordering and rules of state transitions.

Decentralized ledger protocols enable coordination by taking humans out of the picture. Trust is via algorithm and there is no need to worry about "rational actors" and what they plan to do. Except of course at the level of protocol changes here the human factor comes into play again thus the drama over hard forks and core developers.

Decentralized ledger protocols enable coordination via automation and coded protocol and thus serve as an active tool to limit defection. Similarly a police force enables coordination as once you have a good one you can worry less about the "rational actor" who may want to club you over the head for you watch and car as odds are higher those type of folks will get taken off of the street.

What decentralization protocols do not do is solve the "rational actor" problem. They simply minimize it and transfer this problem to the shoulders of whomever controls the ledger at the level of code updates. As these types of folks tend to be a higher quality then average this is a significant improvement..

Transparency is what facilities coordination in situations where the rational actor problem cannot be automated away. Bitcoin is not just a decentralized ledger it is a transparent decentralized ledger. This makes it much more powerful.

Decentralization + Transparency is what allows the hyperrational to identify other rational and hyperrational actors and choose an appropriate strategy based on the nature of the interaction participants.

Transparency of subjective trust (e.g. in terms personal identity exposure in order to force trust relationships) solves nothing, because it's the political economics power vacuum of democracy clusterfuck, the same damn Dunbar limit tribalism trust relationship scaling problem of politics, and the formation of trust relationships which are inherently flawed (e.g. if I need people to trust me then I need to cowtail to people politically in defiance of my ideological principles and limits degrees-of-freedom and the fundamental universal physics trend to maximum entropy).

Objectivity transparency in terms of an objectively provable adherence to a decentralized protocol is what decentralized ledgers enable.

It's immutable decentralized protocols that offer us the potential of rational win-win coordination without a power vacuum nor "rational actor" defection problem, regardless of transparency. And yes, we need those protocols to be immutable and not "upgradeable" by centralized human control nor political power vacuums.

What the heck do you think I am working on in terms of decentralized ledger technology? You (and some others) dismiss my technological work and in your case because apparently you think so highly of Bitcoin because you don't realize you're incorrect about personal transparency being important. It seems to me you lean towards being a collectivist, leftist leaning, religion idolizing, archaic thinker despite claiming you're a Libertarian. I want to move the world forward. The Internet gave us decentralized immutable protocols for decentralized sharing of data. Now we need to perfect the same for decentralized consensus. Just because I have been so ill, doesn't mean I will necessarily not achieve my goals. I am very determined in spite of having a messed up liver (or what ever the fuck is still wrong with the inside of my gut after apparently curing the gut TB), I do not give up and keep fighting for my body to cure itself.

Note that in the case of for example the Internet upgrade from IPv4 to IPv6, this is a somewhat decentralized adoption process. Btw, IPv6 is an important technology for my decentralized ledger technology because it makes the cost of having 10,000 IP addresses per node plausible.

EDIT: decentralized ledgers are Western civilizations only hope of avoiding a Dark Age.