Mint:  Your rambling about government when my argument is about money.  But it's all moot because Usury dose not require a State

Gesell proved that Usury is the result of the liquidity value of the medium of exchange.  The medium of exchange is by definition the most liquid item in an economy, that liquidity has time-value and if the money is hard then the holder of money accrues an unearned value stream from the rest of society WITHOUT EVEN LENDING THE MONEY.  This is probably the part that confuses people so much, that the usury is really latent in the money before lending actually happens.

Because the drive for usury is in the basic nature of hard money, states and governments do not even need to exist for usury to occur as I've described.  Usury is simple the Nash-Equilibrium end state that will result from a Hard (non decaying) form of money.  Neither dose usury require any manipulation in the supply of money, that a different swindle I admit is a problem but one swindle at a time please.

Your still 6 layers too shallow in your thinking, I'm not denying a Incestuous cabal between elites, banks, manipulation of the masses and subversion of the state.  No rational person would deny these things, the only question is one of degree, but all the minutia of how that corruption is being manifested and the exact layering of all the various swindles don't interest me, I'm looking for the ROOT.

But if we ignore that (which is hard money) then we are doomed to repeat the whole sorry history.