These are extreme cases. I don't know what is beyond state, I can only give you a scale where at one end we have the caves and at the other the state. Anything in between is just a transition from one to the other. I thought it was pretty evident...
And here I am trying to tell you the whole time, that MAYBE it's not that conveniently simple and evident.
Unless you provide some substantial evidence, something which is beyond that wanton and non-obliging maybe, I have to stick to the facts which stand as I have described them in my post you answered...