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Topic
Board Politics & Society
Re: [POLL] Trump Impeachment Poll: Who's Fault Is It?
by
nutildah
on 18/10/2019, 04:19:26 UTC
Hi Techole:

You are looking at one of several interpretations of the constitution. The main reason why an impeachment cannot be a criminal proceeding is because it is being determined by the house of representatives and not a judge, or as pointed out in your quotations, a jury.

According to this particular interpretation, an impeachment is being treated as a criminal offense; that does not necessarily imply that it is a criminal offense.

Later, your article entertains a completely opposite interpretation:

Quote
The fourth view is that an indictable crime is not required, but that the impeachable act or acts done by the President must in some way relate to his official duties. The bad act may or may not be a crime but it would be more serious than simply "maladministration." This view is buttressed in part by an analysis of the entire phrase "high crimes or misdemeanors" which seems to be a term of art speaking to a political connection for the bad act or acts. In order to impeach it would not be necessary for the act to be a crime, but not all crimes would be impeachable offenses.

Here's a recent article by the WSJ to help you understand why you are wrong, because obviously you don't understand why yet:

Quote
What’s the difference between impeachment and a criminal trial?

The impeachment process provides a way to remove an officeholder through a majority vote in the House of Representatives followed by a trial in the Senate. Two-thirds of the Senate must vote to convict to remove an officeholder. Because impeachment is handled by Congress, it is more of a political process than a legal proceeding.

A criminal trial, by contrast, is held in local, state or federal court to determine whether an individual violated criminal law. Defendants in criminal trials must be granted due process of law, access to an attorney, the right to confront their accusers, and the right to a trial by jury, according to the Constitution.

A conviction in a criminal trial can deprive someone of their freedom—or even their life in a capital case. The only possible punishment resulting from conviction in an impeachment trial is removal from office.

Not just an interpretation, an actual quote from the constitution.

"Article III § 2 (3) provides that "the trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury."

Trial of crimes (impeachment described as a criminal proceeding) shall be by jury, except criminal proceedings of impeachment. Why even include a reference to impeachment if they were not describing it as a criminal trial? Your argument makes zero sense.

The other interpretations are not exclusive. I was specifically referencing the criminal case upon which the subpoenas issued to Nixon were based, which were the criminal basis upon which the articles of impeachment were based. Even in the counter interpretation is still goes on to explain a criminal impeachment trial can also be based on criminal acts. I never said anything about exclusivity, this is just you trying for a hail Mary. Note the words in red. When is some one convicted and put on trial? That's right, in a criminal proceeding.

The Constitution of The United States of America > The Wall-street Journal.  So are you going to admit you were wrong Nutilduhhhhh?

Hello Techole,

We've already established that contrary to your beliefs, not all impeachments are based on actual crimes. Just because you quoted one line from the constitution used by one particular interpretation (out of several in the article you found by doing a Google search for "is impeachment a criminal procedure?"), it doesn't mean the constitution says impeachment hearings are the same thing as a criminal procedure. This whole debate is simply a failure to acknowledge that you made a misstatement earlier and rather than correcting it you are now doubling down and defending it to the death, which is not going well for you.

Again, criminal trials can only be decided upon by a judge and/or jury, and not the house of representatives. The WSJ article is just a well-written summary of common knowledge; well "common" except to you I suppose.

By the way, my name means "silence" in my ancestral language -- something you should probably practice more of.