Quote from: Publictalk792 on January 13, 2024, 05:41:42 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 13, 2024, 04:19:50 AM

It sounds like you are misreading what I said.. and that is on you,. I stick by my original comments, which are largely responding to Wind_FURY's various somewhat seemingly ongoing and persistent (subtle and sometimes not) arguments against DCA and seeming attempts to suggest that there is some kind of objective best in regards to waiting and buying on dips or also dumbedly trying to suggest, as you seem to be doing Publictalk792 that whatever BTC accumulation choices are made are all relative and blah blah blah bullshit.

I'm sorry if I didn't say what you wanted to hear. There are different ways to invest in Bitcoin. Some people like to use DCA which is a safe and steady way to invest. Other people might choose different methods based on their own research and how much risk they're comfortable with. The best investment strategy is different for everyone and depends on what they like and what their situation is.
I bold the word can be because this is according to risk. If you ask me I will also say that the best strategy is DCA but I was saying it for those who think differently who think according to their minds. Some of them are greedy some take higher risks.

Instead of trying to act as if you know everything, and acting as if you are providing some kind of enlightened answer that "everything is subjective/relative), then why don't we talk about a few different specific examples in order to attempt to verify if there is a best way forward or not.

Example 1: This person has not accumulated any bitcoin, and has an income that is between $300 and $2k per month and most months his income is around $1,200, and monthly expenses of between $600 and $1,000 per month and most months $800. This person has a debt of $1,400 that he services at $50 per month with a 6% interest rate that he services at $50 month with an expected payoff in 30 months (2.5 years), and he has an emergency fund of about one month's expenses $1k.

Example 2: This person has the same monthly income, expenses and debt and emergency fund of Example 1, yet he had been accumulating BTC at about $10 per week in the last 18 months with $810 invested and about 0.0378 BTC accumulated (currently worth $1,625.40).

Example 3: This person has the same monthly income, expenses and debt and emergency fund of Example 1, yet he had been accumulating BTC at about $100 per week in the last 18 months with $810 invested and about 0.378 BTC accumulated (currently worth $16,254).

Example 4: This person has the same situation as Example 2, Except that he both lump sum invested into BTC and started to DCA at $10 per week in the same way as Example 2, The lump sum amount was right around $2,200 and he got 0.1 BTC out of those early lump sum transactions. Therefore, his whole BTC holdings is about 0.1378 BTC accumulated. (currently worth $5,925.40)

Example 5: This person has the same situation as Example 3, Except that he both lump sum invested into BTC and started to DCA at $100 per week in the same way as Example 3, The lump sum amount was right around $11,000 and he got 0.5 BTC out of those early lump sum transactions. Therefore, his whole BTC holdings is about 0.878 BTC accumulated. (currently worth $37,754)

Is what any of these guys should do different? Does their BTC accumulation history change their options? Are there better or worse ways to go forward for each of these guys?

Of course, we could give 5 more examples that are similar to the first 5, and these later 5 examples might end up having more or less debt and/or a greater emergency fund built up, and so any of these guys who ONLY have 1 month's worth of emergency funds is playing with fire, especially the more BTC that he has at risk, then the more that he is going to need a larger emergency fund, which in this case would be considering that the better practices is to have 3-6 months of an emergency fund, especially once your BTC stash starts becoming larger and subject to potentially needing to be dipped into at a time that you would not want to dip into it. So in the above case, an emergency fund, of $3k to $6k rather than $1k would be a preferable way forward - even though of course, it could take a while to get to those levels of en emergency fund based on the income situation of the person in each of the hypothetical. .and maybe the urgency upon which he builds his BTC versus his emergency fund is going to partly be based on his situation, and surely there are going to be some ways forward that are smarter than other possible ways forward..

Also, the more that the debt is under control, then the more options, too, and we could give examples of higher levels of debt or lower levels of debt, and the debt itself is not necessarily bad when it is being serviced at 6%, so we could have worse or better situations in which the interest rate could be higher or lower, and so the higher the rate, the more of an incentive to pay it off early (higher than 6% rates, but surely those rates that are higher than 10% would have incentives to pay off earlier rather than later, and we likely already know that there are some folks who have debts that have interest rates at 15% or higher, so those surely should be considered as priorities to pay off earlier rather than later in order to increase options), and the lower the rates such as 2-3% or even lower would have very little incentive to pay off early, especially if the trade off is to buy more BTC or not with the money that would be used to service such debt. So even with debt there are smarter and dumber ways to deal with that in light of similar kinds of circumstances, and even if people have the right to make whatever decision that they want regarding how to proceed forward, there are some ways forward that are smarter and some ways forward that are less smart.

The ways forward are not all equal or subjective or relative to some unclear woo woo ideas. Do you want to talk about one or more of these examples or some variation of the examples in order to argue some kind of specific point in regards to people can choose whatever they like?

Maybe we could get more specific in terms of describing goals that might be relevant, and if we presume that the person in each of these 5 examples currently has a 4-10 year or longer investment timeline, then over the last year and a half of investing for each of them, some of them are making better progress towards increasing their wealth than others, and maybe we could even get more specific and presume that in 20-30 years the examples have preferences to reach some variation of fuck you status.. .

So maybe with level of income and expenses fuck you status might be considered to be $1 million or even quite a bit less than that in order to retain a sustainable income that is at similar levels to current levels.. . Even with the accumulation of $500k, that might be considered to be at or near entry-level fuck you status for a person with the current income/expense levels described above, since $1 million could be considered to generate $3,333 in passive income per month, and so $500k would be presumed to generate half of that, which would be $1,667 per month.. in today's dollars, but if it takes 15-30 years to reach those levels, we might have to presume needs of reaching higher levels in terms of future dollars, even though we still can get some level of understanding even if merely projecting in today's dollars, especially if we consider that an investment into bitcoin may well have decent chances of keeping up or even outperforming the debasement of the dollar (or other fiat currencies, and even being able to outperform other investment options that might be available).

You can see my entry-level fuck you status chart as a guide to figure out how BTC accumulation goals might be aligned with personal goals, and even change some of the presumptions therein to reach other kinds of numbers that might help for projecting forward how reasonable any personal goals might be, and there likely would be better ways forward than not, once we might describe personal goals with some level of specifics rather than just throwing out vague woo woo ideas that everything is subjective, when likely everything is not subjective, especially if we are including bitcoin in the mix of what we are talking about and after we might establish what the goals might be, so then once the goals are established, then there likely would be better or worse ways to go forward to achieve such goals.

Are there any potential goals that you would like to incorporate into such a discussion, Publictalk792?

Quote from: dragonvslinux on January 13, 2024, 10:39:18 AM

Quote from: Obim34 on January 12, 2024, 11:18:12 PM

Quote from: dragonvslinux on January 12, 2024, 04:47:15 PM

Now just to wait for a dip to hodl, and I right?

Feels like we've been starved of dips since March 2023, when price corrected from $25K to $20K, which was an incredibly tasty dip. Since then, we've had $30K to $25K that barely reached -20%.

All I can say is that I'm looking forward to more dip buying in the near future. Hopefully 2024 will be better dip buying experience than 2023 was!

I'm surprised, expecting a DIP in this 2024, I do no think so. The market is currently recovering and I don't think we should expect anymore DIP. The DIP which we have been anticipating is now at this price for those who earlier missed buy at the $15k+, $20k+ and $30k+ as long we are still below the last ATH, I consider it a good DIP for many investors to come in.

Most people also thought this in 2020 (myself included), prior to a 60% correction. 2016 was very similar, people thought the bull market had already begun and the price was "UP ONLY", but instead there was a -40% correction and 6 months of consolidation before moving higher. NEVER be surprised to see such an aggressive dip when not in a "full-blown" bull market. Until $48.5K is reclaimed and passed on long-term time-frames, this move (from $15.5K to $49K) will forever be a dead cat bounce, just like in 2019 as well as 2016, as it's the expected retracement level from $69K to $15.5K (61.8%). The main difference is, after this expected retracement level, Bitcoin has never fallen lower than it's low the year before, even if it came close in 2020 due to a black swan event, so it's technically a dead cat bounce without bearish continuation basically. Even if full-blown bull markets, when price has reached a new ATH there are still dips of usually up to -35%, but otherwise more recently (2021) up to -50% now apparently. TL:DR: There are always dips.

I agree with almost everything that you are saying here, except any attempt that you seem to be making to suggest that you know when a dip of 20% - 35% or more might end up happening. Sure it could happen now, but it also could end up that whatever downity that we are currently experiencing might not end up breaking lower than it already ha broken which is $41,509 in this current iteration.. which is currently at 15%-ish, and right around $32k would be a 35% correction, and surely all of those kinds of corrections are possible, but they may or may not be in the works right now and at this time.

I guess I will stick with my frequently repeated trope, and maybe we can go back to the 5 examples that I had already given. I doubt that there are many folks who have been in BTC for only a short period of time (unless they already came into bitcoin with large sums) should be fucking around with attempts to trade, but they surely might want to make sure that they have systems in place to buy on dips if such dips happen, whether it is merely the ongoing employment of DCA or if they have extra funds that are sitting on the sides for buying on dips, then those are all reasonable variations of BTC accumulation that some newer bitcoiners could attempt to employ.

Oh and remember this here thread is not about trading, so fuck off with the trading ideas, yet to the extent that you are attempting to apply them to various BTC accumulation strategies, then surely some of your same ideas could still apply, even if we are not necessarily getting specifically into trading practices (which would be a subject for a different thread).

So, even if we were to use a guy with your amount of time in BTC (according to your forum registration), we could create further examples out of how someone in a similar timeline like you would likely be in an even in a better position to play around with various strategies that deviate from more straightforwards DCA strategies.. or even combinations of DCA, lump sum and buying on dips. I don't want to go as far as creating examples 6-10 from your timeline, but we could just go with example 6.

Let's do it:

Example 6: This person has similar situations as Example 3, except that his timeline is longer going back to mid 2017, he both lump sum invested into BTC and started to DCA at $100 per week in the same way as Example 3. Here, the lump sum amount was right around $12,000 and he got 4 BTC out of those early lump sum transactions. Therefore, his total amount invested into BTC would be about $46.2k ($12k lump sum + $34.2k DCA) and his whole BTC holdings would be about 7.272 BTC accumulated. (currently worth $312,696).

Sure, we could go with other variations of Example 6, yet the point is that with a longer timeline of investing into BTC with presumptive ongoing BTC accumulation, more options come about by being into bitcoin longer, even if you might have messed up in some of your techniques, but if you had been largely accumulating through much of that time, then you likely are in a better place than the person who was not in or who might have not been accumulating BTC.

Quote from: Pikachi42 on January 13, 2024, 10:48:17 AM

Bitcoin is a digital currency. which can be received directly from one person to another without any medium. There are three ways to earn bitcoins, the first way is you can buy bitcoins for long term investment, sell when its price increases several times and earn extra bitcoins as profit. The second way is to buy bitcoins and sell them on time. Selling Bitcoin whenever the price rises above your purchase price is called a short-term investment.The third way is to do mining. The mining method is the payment that is given in exchange for a work called earning bitcoins in the mining method. The job of the mining method is that you solve the Bitcoin algorithm on a computer, and in exchange for this work you can earn Bitcoins as a reward.

who are old may know these things well. This post is for newbies. I am also new to crypto currency. I have collected this information and knowledge from some medium.https://www.bitcoin.com/get-started/what-is-bitcoin/#what-is-bitcoin

If there is any mistake in the writing, please let me know so that I can correct my mistake.

There is nothing really wrong with what you are saying, even though you are mostly off-topic, and this is not a thread specifically meant for instructing newbies about bitcoin basics - even though you might be able to get some basic ideas through this thread.

We are also not talking about buying and selling in this thread, so if you either look at the OP or even if you read through some of the thread, you would likely realize that we are mainly going into various ways to accumulate bitcoin for long term investing, rather than your also mentioning of playing bitcoin for short-term profits, which is surely possible, but it is also off-topic and a bit of a distraction from this thread, since that is not much of what we are talking about, except incidentally.

Quote from: adultcrypto on January 13, 2024, 11:09:41 AM

Quote from: Publictalk792 on January 13, 2024, 05:41:42 AM

Quote from: JayJuanGee on January 13, 2024, 04:19:50 AM

It sounds like you are misreading what I said.. and that is on you,. I stick by my original comments, which are largely responding to Wind_FURY's various somewhat seemingly ongoing and persistent (subtle and sometimes not) arguments against DCA and seeming attempts to suggest that there is some kind of objective best in regards to waiting and buying on dips or also dumbedly trying to suggest, as you seem to be doing Publictalk792 that whatever BTC accumulation choices are made are all relative and blah blah blah bullshit.

I'm sorry if I didn't say what you wanted to hear. There are different ways to invest in Bitcoin. Some people like to use DCA which is a safe and steady way to invest. Other people might choose different methods based on their own research and how much risk they're comfortable with. The best investment strategy is different for everyone and depends on what they like and what their situation is.
I bold the word can be because this is according to risk. If you ask me I will also say that the best strategy is DCA but I was saying it for those who think differently who think according to their minds. Some of them are greedy some take higher risks.

Why is the emphasis on risk? I have followed the discussion here and the focus is long term investment which is believe to be a low risk method. But your submission that has risk as the denominator is not definite and your opinion seem equivocal. What I'm saying is that for long term investment, the risk is minimal, hence risk should not be a factor of consideration during the buying process.

I doubt that it is fair to suggest that the mere fact that many of us are considering investing into bitcoin long term (and surely acting upon such considerations) that the mere fact that it is long term automatically makes the risk minimal - yet if we are talking about long term versus short term risk, we can structure our BTC investment in ways that we are not concerned about short-term risks because we are using money that we do not need in the short-term, and surely if we believe that we need the money in the long term, then the mere fact that we are taking away short-term risk, does not automatically mean that we are also taking away long term risk, too.

Of course, the longer that we are in bitcoin, then if BTC prices continue to go up as they have done historically, then our being in profits will buffer some of our long term risk, but we likely are not completely getting rid of the long term risk unless we are cashing out at various points along the way, and I am not even suggesting that it is necessary to cash out along the way, unless we might feel that there is some necessity to remove some of the ongoing risks of losing bitcoin's appreciating value or even losing the principle. Even if we might withdrawal all of our principle, we still could be risking whatever is left in bitcoin in terms of whether we expect it to go up in the future and we might start to rely upon that bitcoin goes up rather than down or at least goes sideways rather than down, so I doubt it is really fair to say that we are even closely removing all risks, even though we are likely removing some kinds of risks through our position size and the way we structure our BTC investment so that we are not using money that we are going to need in the shorter term.

Quote from: adultcrypto on January 13, 2024, 11:09:41 AM

It is expected that before even getting started, one would have decided that:
1. the investment is for long term
2. funds allocated to Bitcoin will not affect basic needs. Meaning that it can be kept in Bitcoin for as long as necessary without the need for panic sell

So long as the above are in well taken care of, the risk that many associate with Bitcoin are minimal. Ever since I started using the DCA method, I no longer worry about the risk that was ingrained in my head when I first started. I'm totally at peace and passionately adding to my portfolio base on my plans.

Given the caveat of my above response in regards to that you are not completely removing risk, even if you might be ready for BTC to go to zero, I don't disagree with any of this. By the way, I do get the sense that you may well still be expecting BTC to go up in the future, so you are content in the short-term with some level of expectation that BTC prices are going to go up in the future when you might be wanting to use the money.. and there is nothing wrong with having that kind of expectation, but you still should consider that if BTC were to go to zero or were to perform in such a way that you either do not gain value or even that you lose value in the future when you are expecting to need the money, then you are still probably taking some risks that your expectations for your future might not be met through your bitcoin investment.

Quote from: Justbillywitt on January 13, 2024, 12:22:17 PM

Quote from: Frankolala on January 13, 2024, 10:17:12 AM

[edited out]

I agree with you on this as someone who is new to Bitcoin investment should only focus on buying, firstly with lump sum and DCA. Waiting for dip is like not knowing what you are doing and I will see such newbie as someone who is not ready for Bitcoin investment. Waiting for dip without defining the level of dip you expect to see before buying is
Just a waste of time, because no matter the level of dip you see you won't be satisfied as your mind will keep telling you that there is still more dip coming that you have to wait and while waiting you might end up no buying again and still such investor won't have Bitcoin when he/she should have had it.

Of course, I agree with you that DCA gives some better assurance that you will just spend in accordance with your cash inflows versus your expenses, so presumptively, if you are able to establish some level of steady cashflow, then you will continue to have money to buy each week or whatever might be the period in which you are applying your DCA buys.

At the same time, there is no problem to keep some cash aside for buying on dips as long as you try to maintain some kind of balance, because one of the problems in terms of giving up on DCA is that if you ONLY have buying on dip money, then you may well end up not being able to figure out when to deploy it or even deploying it too soon and then running out of money, but if you have your DCA continuing to go, you just buy no matter what and the buying on dip merely supplements it. So you might not even give any shits if dips happen or not, but if they do, you have various buy orders already set or planned at various price points, if the BTC price happens to dip to those points, and if it does not dip then you still have the money that you may or may not keep at those price points or to use it in other ways.

Even for me, by the time I got to 6 months or even 1 year into investing into BTC, I had already accumulated enough BTC that I was way more profitable by the BTC price going up rather than down, so even if I might end up buying on various dips, my preference was not for the dip, and so the more BTC you accumulate, the more that you are preferring the BTC price to go up rather than down, so any actual purchases that you make on the dips, are not really increasing your BTC stash in significant ways as compared with how much value it lost from going down.. but that is part of the process of building, and even in our most recent BTC price depressed time between May 2022 and October 2023, many of us might have had lost a lot of value from our BTC falling in value from 2021, but we were able to pick up some cheaper BTC during that whole period of May 2022 to October 2023, so even if it did not increase our BTC stash a lot in terms of percentage, it still became an opportunity to continue to build our BTC stack size.

Quote from: Popkon6 on January 13, 2024, 12:58:12 PM

Quote from: adultcrypto on January 13, 2024, 11:09:41 AM

Why is the emphasis on risk? I have followed the discussion here and the focus is long term investment which is believe to be a low risk method. But your submission that has risk as the denominator is not definite and your opinion seem equivocal. What I'm saying is that for long term investment, the risk is minimal, hence risk should not be a factor of consideration during the buying process. It is expected that before even getting started, one would have decided that:

1. the investment is for long term
2. funds allocated to Bitcoin will not affect basic needs. Meaning that it can be kept in Bitcoin for as long as necessary without the need for panic sell

So long as the above are in well taken care of, the risk that many associate with Bitcoin are minimal. Ever since I started using the DCA method, I no longer worry about the risk that was ingrained in my head when I first started. I'm totally at peace and passionately adding to my portfolio base on my plans.

I started investing about a year ago, and the DCA method of investing has made me successful. But I didn't see this success in the beginning, I can see the success now because the price of bitcoin is also increasing and I continued my regular DCA method now my bitcoin portfolio is very big. Full credit to the DCA method, my future bitcoins would not have been invested if I had not adopted the DCA method. When Bitcoin was 22k, I started taking investment risk in early 2023. But now I don't think of this risk as anything, the risk is now filled with joy.

Hopefully, you are able to make it through a whole cycle.. otherwise what you are saying is a BIG SO WHAT? yes, it is comfortable for your stash to be in profits rather than in the negative, so what does that mean for you? Are you going to be able to hold through a whole cycle, or what is going to happen in the next 4 years with you? Maybe 3 years would be enough to proclaim that you made it through a whole cycle.. so until then.. I am having some troubles understanding how you might be talking about longterm action or even describing yourself to have made it through some kind of longer timeline? 4-10 years or longer is much longer than a year.. even if you might be setting up the groundwork for future profits, so let's see. Do you have a plan that goes that far out or our you too busy celebrating short term gains on paper that may well contribute towards your inability to even make it a whole cycle.

Quote from: Taskford on January 13, 2024, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: Popkon6 on January 13, 2024, 12:58:12 PM

[edited out]

For now I'm thinking about load up my exchange wallet and try to find good position to take long and let see what will happen next if I can get a profit or we see a price correction.

You sound like a trader rather than a long term investor. Are you sure that you are in the right thread?

Quote from: FinePoine0 on Today at 01:50:38 AM

Quote from: Mayor of ogba on January 13, 2024, 10:30:10 PM

[edited out]

Why should he divide the money into 3 parts? If he continues to invest in DCA method then I can tell him that you invest in DCA method weekly. If he follows the DCA method he will continue to invest in Bitcoins regularly. And there is no problem even if the market moves down, there is no problem even if the market moves up because the main observation of the DCA method is the average calculation. If buy bitcoin during high speed like 42k current price, if buy bitcoin from here and if buy bitcoin dc method during 48k price then average price of bitcoin will be 44k budget. This is the reason why most investors prefer the Bitcoin BCS method, on average, for many reasons.

Did you make a typo or what? What is BCS method?