[...]Perspective: A max of 28+ "coins" were staking yesterday at some point. Historical maximum. Now, since the total coins in existence were 26.8 mill, we have found there are somewhat "ghost", "fake", whatever "coins" that appear in that tracking tool that don't really exist (I am still struggling with how those appear and, more worrysome, DO stake)[...]
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are no fake numbers, unless you count the ones that you fabricated in your post while attempting to make some point. The stake weight number, which factors in both the quantity AND age of the coins in a block, is a valid number and it's a crucial part of the PoS system.
The crux of the matter is the fact that, while the sum total of the stake weight for every block that's staking is useful for getting a
relative feel for how many coins are staking, it can obviously be a misleading number. It would make more sense to the end user for the wallet to display the actual number of coins staking, but as pnosker stated and effects elaborated upon, there is currently no function in place to display that number.
So what should we do? Should we ignorantly shout, "THIS IS BULLSHIT!!" and allude to suspicious behavior on the part of the devs? Or should we perhaps try to understand what that number actually represents and/or ask the devs if they can provide us with a different number that is a more accurate representation of the number of coins staking? I vote for the later.
It sounds like this feature can be added and that effects actually intends to add it to a future build. Let's not beat a dead horse.
Well it is not an easy thing to understand... especially if if it not put bin the proper perspective, so there's no beating any dead horse, it is, in fact, a very alive horse no matter how you choose to look at it. And pretending that this is making a mountain out of a mole hill is NOT, definitely, the proper perspective. Whatever this is, is something neither Patrick nor Doug quite understand, which in itself is very worrysome. I think we all agree that it is an immediate need to have a wallet that tells us how many REAL coins are staking at any and all times, that doesn't need repeating and should be implemented as a very top, top priority.
The real worrysome part, though is the "not too much bigger number". Again, it is a
hugely bigger number in fact and, so far, we have no idea how such a huge number staking is not going to produce an inflation way superior to 2.5% annually. That is a MAJOR concern, not a mole hill. And, quite frankly, I don't believe the devs actually know how that network weighted stake is going to en up affecting the actual number of coins produced. We, the average investors, certainly do not. You are probably not an average investor and maybe you do know how 28+ million coins staking are going to produce less than 2.5% interest in half that amount of coins. If you do, I'd appreciate enormously that you explain it to me and to all here in layman's terms more or less. To me if 10 million coins stake for a year, the maximum number of new coins produced would be 250k. Now if those same 10 million are indeed REALLY staking, but the phantom figure is 20 million instead, the resulting amount of coin s produced at the end of the year would be 500k instead, thus resulting in a 5% inflation instead of the 2.5%.
I'm sure I'm making my rudimentary calculations erroneously, but I am equally sure you, the devs and other gifted mathematicians can clear fast and easily my error and set me on the right track within seconds. I'll be waiting.
I'm not sure how many times we can say this, but no, there's no "hugely bigger number" of staked coins vs coins. There can never be more than the coin count staked at once. The weight of some of the coins can be slightly higher, say 10% higher, for example. But in no way is this hugely bigger and it's simply how staking works. Every PoS coin has this. I'm not sure where you get your 10M-250k vs 20M number, but that's not possible. The interest rate is the interest rate is the interest rate. There's no fake coins or pseudo coins hovering around. The rate is slightly higher than the real coin count right now because some of those coins weren't staking before and now are so they are gaining the interest from when they were last spent, resetting their coin age.
Imagine this scenario:
You have 1000 VRC, continuously staking. They stake 1095 times a year roughly (365*8 hrs compounded) and earn 1/1095*0.023 (2.3% interest) or 0.0109785203 VRC per stake.
Your friend has 1000 VRC, staking for the first time in 1 month. That means they earn 30*8/1095*0.023 (30 days * 8 hr cycles at 2.3% interest) or 5.04109589 VRC per stake.
For that time when the 1000 VRC staked for the first time in a month is staking, they are earning that month's worth of interest and making the net stake weight slightly higher until their stake is complete.
This is how staking works. This is why the network stake weight is inflated beyond the coin count right now because some coins are staking often due to not having a large coin age. No other PoS coin has ever gone above the total coin count in my memory so nobody has ever noticed this phenomenon before.
But either way, no interest is being earned beyond the ~1.5-2.5% per year. You are full of silliness claiming that there's a "hugely bigger number" of coins staking.
No no no Patrick, you simply refuse to acknowledge the reality here. There's no "silliness" in claiming that maybe as much as DOUBLE the real amount of coins staking is actually staking. Thank you for your attempt at explaining this but no, sorry, you are WRONG. The 28+ million figure is the weighted amount staking, right? My claim -far from silly- is that probably only HALF of that amount ion REAL coins is actually sitting in open wallets, while the rest is either in pre-staking situation or, in most major amount, simply sitting in the exchanges, NOT staking at all. So we are not talking a "10% higher". We are talking much, much, MUUUUUCH higher than 10%.
Now, if EVEN 10% is higher indeed, how does that additional staking not influence the inflation level? how is "no interest is being earned beyond the ~1.5-2.5% per year" possible if the staking "coins", in HUGELY BIGGER NUMBERS than the real coins, are staking and therefore producing new coins? Let's provide an scenario where the average number of phantom coins during the year is 30 million, while the real amount of coins is 27 million. If the interest produced is 2.5% we will end up the year with 750k more new VRCs, right? That would be 2.77777% of the TOTAL real coins (those that staked and those that did not). Now, assuming the REAL amount of coins that staked, averaged let's say 18 million, we will find that those coins got 4.17% instead of the maximum of 2.5%. And that is, obviously, not even counting the staking of those coins staked along the way themselves... where's my math wrong in this scenario?
I'll tell you what, right now, you know, positively, the exact number of coins that are in the exchanges, NOT staking. You should have them all at the top of the rich list -very easy to know which ones are bittrex, cryptsy and mintpal, the most significant. How many millions are now there. Those are NOT staking at all. Deduct them from the 28 million and you will see immediately that the figure is far from 10% and most definitely can't be called "not too much bigger". And that doesn't include, of course, those coins waiting to stake in the different wallets that have not reached the 8 hours threshold maturity. What exactly is the "silliness"??
About the "phenomenon" I will investigate if it does happen in other coins. It is not difficult when there are so many coins with much less than 27 million coins total so I'll make sure to bring back some preliminary results of my investigation asap.
You are just so wrong. The network stake weight is not the amount of coins * the interest rate. The real coins * interest rate = the inflation. The network stake weight is simply a weight to define how much interest rate is granted.