Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: It's about time to turn off PoW mining
by
iluvpie60
on 08/09/2014, 00:17:40 UTC
1) I'm assuming you're including the block reward as part of the transaction "cost".  That's not a valid comparison, since that is money injected into the network.  Even if it was, upon reduction to negligibility of the block reward, that number will drop dramatically.  The free market will eventually settle on what makes a fair transaction cost is in absence of a block reward.


Yes, when block reward is gone, that number may drop dramatically, but what then? what about 51% attack? Right now a PoW 51% attack on Bitcoin would cost hundreds of million dollars too, if the block reward is gone, then transaction fees better make up for it, otherwise a 51% attack would become very cheap.

Now if the transaction fee does make up for the block reward, then we are still back to to the original problem, hundreds of millions of dollars bleeding from the community each year, and paid to hardware vendor/electric company.
You're too short-sighted.  If Bitcoin is still around by the time the block reward is insignificant to miners, then it's going to be worth a lot more than it is now, and a lot more transactions are going to be pushed through it than are pushed now, upping the reward per block.  Transaction fees aside, think about it - the price only has to DOUBLE in 4 years to maintain the same value of reward to miners.  In the last 4 years, the price has gone from $0.0025/bitcoin to $500/bitcoin.  That's 200,000 times the current value. Now certainly, the value of Bitcoin cannot continue rising indefinitely, but one thing is for certain: if Bitcoin is successful, then block rewards will continue sustaining mining for decades to come.  If Bitcoin ISN'T worth a lot more by the time the block reward is insignificant, then the Bitcoin experiment effectively failed, because the current value isn't enough for a significant number of people to be using it for transacting and storing value.

And you've still failed to convince me how money is "bleeding" from the community.  What does that even mean?  What do you expect miners would be doing with their money if mining wasn't available?

Finally, what's the correct level of security that Bitcoin needs?  A 51% attack would be detrimental, but it wouldn't mean the end of Bitcoin.  There are ways to counter and mitigate it, and the worst that would happen is a suspension of transactions until the attack is resolved.  So, what's to say that $10M of attack prevention isn't enough?  Currently it would cost somewhere in the hundreds of millions, but is that really necessary?  I'd be interested to see some analysis in that regard.

Do you know what you fail to take into account when you say "the price only has to DOUBLE in 4 years to maintain the same value of reward to miners"? How about the fact that the difficulty is going to be so high in 4 years there will likely not be almost any miners left except 1 or 2 big ones companies.  With the difficulty currently at 27,428,630,902.258 and the next difficulty change is forecasted at about 29,612,408,114.79462019(sources from block explorer  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty#How_often_does_the_network_difficulty_change.3F)

Do you really think bitcoin is not goign to bleed all the miners dry? what will the difficulty be next year at the same time? the increase in %change for this next one is about 7.96167048%....If not higher.

sorry i did not go by a specific real date just did 13 days rating onthis and assumed 8% increase everytime.

Difficulty          Increase %      Date
27,428,630,902   108.00%   09/07/14
29,622,921,374   108.00%   09/20/14
31,992,755,084   108.00%   10/03/14
34,552,175,491   108.00%   10/16/14
37,316,349,530   108.00%   10/29/14
40,301,657,492   108.00%   11/11/14
43,525,790,092   108.00%   11/24/14
47,007,853,299   108.00%   12/07/14
50,768,481,563   108.00%   12/20/14
54,829,960,088   108.00%   01/02/15
59,216,356,895   108.00%   01/15/15
63,953,665,447   108.00%   01/28/15
69,069,958,683   108.00%   02/10/15
74,595,555,377   108.00%   02/23/15
80,563,199,807   108.00%   03/08/15
87,008,255,792   108.00%   03/21/15
93,968,916,255   108.00%   04/03/15
101,486,429,556   108.00%   04/16/15
109,605,343,920   108.00%   04/29/15
118,373,771,434   108.00%   05/12/15
127,843,673,149   108.00%   05/25/15
138,071,167,001   108.00%   06/07/15
149,116,860,361   108.00%   06/20/15
161,046,209,189   108.00%   07/03/15
173,929,905,925   108.00%   07/16/15
187,844,298,399   108.00%   07/29/15
202,871,842,270   108.00%   08/11/15
219,101,589,652   108.00%   08/24/15
236,629,716,824   108.00%   09/06/15
255,560,094,170   108.00%   09/19/15
276,004,901,704   108.00%   10/02/15
298,085,293,840   108.00%   10/15/15
321,932,117,347   108.00%   10/28/15
347,686,686,735   108.00%   11/10/15
375,501,621,674   108.00%   11/23/15
405,541,751,408   108.00%   12/06/15
437,985,091,521   108.00%   12/19/15
473,023,898,842   108.00%   01/01/16
510,865,810,750   108.00%   01/14/16
551,735,075,610   108.00%   01/27/16
595,873,881,658   108.00%   02/09/16
643,543,792,191   108.00%   02/22/16
695,027,295,566   108.00%   03/06/16
750,629,479,212   108.00%   03/19/16
810,679,837,548   108.00%   04/01/16
875,534,224,552   108.00%   04/14/16
945,576,962,517   108.00%   04/27/16
1,021,223,119,518   108.00%   05/10/16
1,102,920,969,079   108.00%   05/23/16
1,191,154,646,606   108.00%   06/05/16
1,286,447,018,334   108.00%   06/18/16
1,389,362,779,801   108.00%   07/01/16
1,500,511,802,185   108.00%   07/14/16
1,620,552,746,360   108.00%   07/27/16
1,750,196,966,068   108.00%   08/09/16
1,890,212,723,354   108.00%   08/22/16
2,041,429,741,222   108.00%   09/04/16
2,204,744,120,520   108.00%   09/17/16
2,381,123,650,162   108.00%   09/30/16
2,571,613,542,174   108.00%   10/13/16
2,777,342,625,548   108.00%   10/26/16
2,999,530,035,592   108.00%   11/08/16
3,239,492,438,440   108.00%   11/21/16
3,498,651,833,515   108.00%   12/04/16
3,778,543,980,196   108.00%   12/17/16
4,080,827,498,612   108.00%   12/30/16
4,407,293,698,501   108.00%   01/12/17
4,759,877,194,381   108.00%   01/25/17
5,140,667,369,931   108.00%   02/07/17
5,551,920,759,526   108.00%   02/20/17
5,996,074,420,288   108.00%   03/05/17
6,475,760,373,911   108.00%   03/18/17
6,993,821,203,824   108.00%   03/31/17
7,553,326,900,129   108.00%   04/13/17
8,157,593,052,140   108.00%   04/26/17
8,810,200,496,311   108.00%   05/09/17
9,515,016,536,016   108.00%   05/22/17
10,276,217,858,897   108.00%   06/04/17
11,098,315,287,609   108.00%   06/17/17
11,986,180,510,618   108.00%   06/30/17
12,945,074,951,467   108.00%   07/13/17
13,980,680,947,585   108.00%   07/26/17
15,099,135,423,391   108.00%   08/08/17
16,307,066,257,263   108.00%   08/21/17
17,611,631,557,844   108.00%   09/03/17
19,020,562,082,471   108.00%   09/16/17
20,542,207,049,069   108.00%   09/29/17
22,185,583,612,994   108.00%   10/12/17
23,960,430,302,034   108.00%   10/25/17
25,877,264,726,197   108.00%   11/07/17
27,947,445,904,292   108.00%   11/20/17
30,183,241,576,636   108.00%   12/03/17
32,597,900,902,766   108.00%   12/16/17
35,205,732,974,988   108.00%   12/29/17
38,022,191,612,987   108.00%   01/11/18
41,063,966,942,026   108.00%   01/24/18
44,349,084,297,388   108.00%   02/06/18
47,897,011,041,179   108.00%   02/19/18
51,728,771,924,473   108.00%   03/04/18
55,867,073,678,431   108.00%   03/17/18
60,336,439,572,705   108.00%   03/30/18
65,163,354,738,522   108.00%   04/12/18
70,376,423,117,604   108.00%   04/25/18
76,006,536,967,012   108.00%   05/08/18
82,087,059,924,373   108.00%   05/21/18
88,654,024,718,323   108.00%   06/03/18
95,746,346,695,788   108.00%   06/16/18
103,406,054,431,451   108.00%   06/29/18
111,678,538,785,968   108.00%   07/12/18
120,612,821,888,845   108.00%   07/25/18
130,261,847,639,953   108.00%   08/07/18
140,682,795,451,149   108.00%   08/20/18
151,937,419,087,241   108.00%    09/02/18
164,092,412,614,220   108.00%   09/15/18
177,219,805,623,358   108.00%   09/28/18
191,397,390,073,226   108.00%   10/11/18



so by the same time next year you can see the difficulty has risen by almost 10 times. 2 years from this date the difficulty would look something like 10 times that, then 3 years later it is something like 10 times that again. how in the hell are you calculating anything other than being bled the fuck dry? miners are already being bled to death at 27 billion... and ur saying when it starts up in 4 years which is 151trillion difficulty that we only need double the bitcoin price? are you high on every drug or something at the same time. get fucking real.