Και μιας και έπεσα πάνω του σήμερα και πάλι για άλλους λόγους, το ΦΕΚ που εξηγεί όλα όσα χρειάζεται για τη διακίνηση χρήματος, κανονισμούς για ξέπλυμα χρήματος, κλπ. είναι το 650/Β/9-4-2009.

Πηγαίνετε στο www.et.gr, Αναζητήσεις, Αναζήτηση ΦΕΚ.

Βάζετε έτος 2009, τεύχος Β, και αριθμό από 650 έως 650 και το κατεβάζετε.

Ενδείκνυται για διάβασμα το βράδυ αν έχετε αϋπνίες 

Sorry για την καθυστέρηση, αλλά ήμουν εκτός μερικές μέρες. Η απάντηση σε αυτή την ερώτηση είναι συνάρτηση των γνώσεων, της εμπειρίας και της διάθεσης (mood) του λογιστή σας και του εφοριακού που θα το ελέγξει, καθώς και της γενικότερης εικόνας που έχει η εκάστοτε ΔΟΥ για τον εκάστοτε φορολογούμενο. Δεν υπάρχει δικαστικό ή νομικό προηγούμενο ούτε και σαφείς κανονισμοί.

Η απάντησή μου στην ερώτηση λοιπόν, πέραν του ότι είναι αυστηρά προσωπικό δεδομένο, μπορεί να σας οδηγήσει σε λάθος συμπεράσματα. Αν ενδιαφέρεστε να κάνετε κάτι τέτοιο ψάξτε το με το λογιστή σας.

Καλησπέρα Χρήστο,

Επειδή οι εξηγήσεις είναι τουλάχιστον ανεπαρκείς, διάβασε το παρακάτω:

Αν έχεις επιχείρηση, δεν θα σε ρωτήσει κανείς τίποτε για ένα έμβασμα 50Κ στο λογαριασμό της εταιρείας. Επειδή όμως τα αντίγραφα κινήσεων (extrait) πρέπει να συμπεριληφθούν στα λογιστικά αρχεία, θα πρέπει να υπάρχει δικαιολογητικό (τιμολόγιο ή άλλο) για αυτή την κίνηση σε περίπτωση οποιουδήποτε ελέγχου.

Αν τα λάβεις σε προσωπικό σου λογαριασμό, εντός 24ώρου θα έχεις τηλεφώνημα από την τράπεζά σου, η οποία θα σου ζητήσει να παρέχεις έγγραφη δικαιολόγηση για την προέλευση του ποσού. Κάθε κίνηση πάνω από 10Κ χτυπάει καμπανάκι και ελέγχεται διεξοδικά για ξέπλυμα χρήματος. Αν έχεις ακούσει για τις μεθόδους ξεπλύματος με τρίτους που συμβαίνουν καθημερινά, θα καταλάβεις τι εννοώ. Τελευταία ελέγχουν και μικρότερα ποσά γιατί οι πλύστρες έχουν γίνει πιο έξυπνες.

Η καλύτερη λύση για να μην έχεις ιστορίες αν πρόκειται για τέτοιο ποσό, είναι να το σπάσεις σε μικρότερα (και κατά προτίμηση κάτω από 1.000 Ευρώ ανά κίνηση) και όχι στην ίδια τράπεζα.

Και σε περίπτωση που αναρωτιέσαι, μιλώ εκ πείρας (και για την επιχείρηση και για το έμβασμα σε προσωπικό λογαριασμό).

Να' σαι καλά,

Χρήστος (άλλος  )

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You can't really compare it with stocks. Owners of a company's stocks or other securities, actually have a claim on the company's assets, some of which are always physical (larger percentage for an airline as an example, smaller percentage for a software firm, and so on). Even if stock goes to zero, there is always some recoverable value. This is why, when companies have substantial physical assets (plants, equipment, inventory, etc.) their stock cannot go to zero. Someone will buy them before that. Debt changes the variables, but even if the company defaults, some debt is recoverable.

"Market capitalization" in that context is a useful metric when compared to the actual asset base of the balance sheet, to gauge whether a stock is richly or poorly priced (and in the case of things like FB as an example, to try and justify it  ).

Owning bitcoins (which is a very vague term anyway, the "owning" part I mean) does not represent a claim on anything of value. If their price ever goes to zero, we probably won't even talk about it with anyone anymore.

So, terms like "market cap" have no meaning when talking about BTC, but for a different reason, IMO, than what the OP suggested. There are many more differences between bitcoins and securities, such as what happens if the grid shuts down for a while...

And BTW, Spiff, nice to see you here :-). KAFA 4 ever ;-).

My #1 reason is Bernanke's QE which creates bubbles in any thing that can be inflated. In fact, add Draghi, Abe, newcomer Carney, and all the other central bankers. They're all in a race to debase their currencies.

So it's not Bitcoin going up in my view, it's the dollar going down, plus too much printed fiat, which fills bubbles with hot air. And I would also think that Bitcoin is one of the things that can inflate beyond any expectation as there is no physical anchor to it.

If money supply was tight, people would not risk shit in bitcoins, or anything else for that matter. And please don't tell me that people are hungry and deprived, watch the price of commodities, stocks, and supermarket goods. Everywhere. Are they going down because people don't buy them anymore? I guess not. QED.

Everybody likes to speculate and find the hidden meaning of the latest price rally, conspiracies, hidden business plans, you name it. I believe that part of it is because everybody knows it's a very risky business, and as humans we want to try to find a rationale for getting involved in such a thing. None of the things mentioned in this thread or all the others which I have managed to read could justify such volatility, even if one takes into account the "instant" movement of Bitcoin currency for speculation purposes.

So, I would suggest that you sit down and enjoy it while it lasts, and not expect it to last forever. If you can't take the thrills of risky ventures, better get a salaried job. If you can, dive in, surf the wave, and when you go down with it, take it like a man.

My 2 cents worth

Γιατί θα έπρεπε να τo κάνoυμε αυτό;

Sorry, I only understand English. Are you trying to say that the U.S. is not a bully?

And you would spend how many millions of $ to produce one ounce of gold?

Or do you believe that gold can go above 1M$/ounce and make the process profitable? If that happens, do you understand how much this gold-producing equipment would cost? And who would care about $ anyway in such a case?

Gold's supply is limited and will be for at least the lives of our generation and our children's generation.

You are correct. They didn't start this. Someone else did. The problem with that logic is that we all end up with bullies protecting our sovereignty, to the point where we wonder what good it is anyway.

Why shouldn't everyone be a bully?

The OP assumes that governments can decide for themselves. Recent experience in Greece tells me that this is not so.

Politicians' number one criterion to decide their actions is the next popular vote. Fiscal responsibility (balancing revenues and spending) NEVER gets someone elected.

Governments are elected by people who vote for the best promises (mostly financial in nature). Voters of course, never fire up an Excel sheet to check whether these promises are actually able to be fulfilled.  Then, when governments are elected they find out that they are not really running the show.

So what if there is actually an honest and decent governement somewhere on the Earth, and decides to ditch their CB? They will certainly discover within hours who's actually in charge. A few coordinated MSM attacks, and the CBs (their local one and the others in the rest of the world) will ditch the government in no time.

As long as the overwhelming majority believes that paper money and fractional reserve bank accounts are their "wealth" there is no way to change this. I might know that this premise is wrong, but it took me quite some time to accept it, as this is a very inconvenient truth.

It would be however interesting to think how this overwhelming majority would react if some day they realize what this particular brand of governments and associated CBs have actually done to their lives.

So to the OP, I think PEOPLE will love Bitcoin (or any similar alternative) the day that they will look at those banknotes in their pockets and say "WTF is that?". Governments would soon follow.

Aγία Παρασκευή, δίπλα στo Noμισματoκoπείo 
There are several such services already, with varying limitations. If you want to get competitive wholesale pricing from the source (mobile operators) you need to sing a contract for several hundred thousand SMS per year (that comes to thousands of EUR). Also, if you set up an anonymous SMS service with bitcoins, and your service happens to be used for harrassment, drug dealing, arms dealing or some other of the thousands of illegal activities, your account will be suspended by the operator, and you will be liable for your user's actions unless you give up their identification to the authorities. You need customer names and confirmed IDs to protect yourself from legal action. And that would make such a service much less attractive.
Maybe I can help with the latter. No promises, though.

These are both bulk SMS senders, meaning they can't be used for retail (personal messaging) which is what I think the original idea was for. I've used time4sms.gr for my company and this is clear in the terms. They also have a noticeable transmission delay (could be up to 12 hours) which makes them suitable for marketing campaigns only.

In my view, there's more chance to hit some bitcoin success by thinking what are the products and services that people WANT to buy, but for one reason or another, they cannot buy in the current state of the market. SMS is far too congested as a market. A friend recently was talking to me about an online exchange for genuine seeds (not hybrids) which are indeed very rare. I can think of a few other ideas as well. How about a face-to-face meeting?

Δεν φαίνεται να είμαστε πoλλoί πάντως...

Eγώ είμαι μέσα.

Zero sum means this:

Every account starts at 0. Let's say we agree that I'm a plumber and I will clean your drainpipes for 30 TEM. Then your account balance will become -30 TEM (debit) and my account balance will become +30 TEM (credit which I can spend in another transaction).

I put it wrongly in my previous post, there is a maximum debit of 300 TEM that someone can have, not credit. Members can have unlimited credit.

There is no "starting amount" of TEM. It's zero for everyone and the total sum of member balances is always zero. It is still inflationary however.

Regarding your comment about the foundation of money, I would answer definitely yes, if we're talking about Ancient Greece. But if you just try to think about the economic forces that have contributed to the existence of this very forum and those that have made possible the 900,000 or so posts herein by people all over the world, I think you might agree that personal barter doesn't help much.

Too convoluted system. Not anonymous at all (you have to give your ID card to participate).

Their website is down for the last few days (maybe Orthodox Easter holidays). (www.tem-magnisia.gr). You could find some of their page in Google Cache and then translate them but many things will be lost in the translation.

It's a zero sum currency. There are as many TEM debits as there are TEM credits at any time. The fact that everyone has a 300 TEM credit limit (they cannot spend more than that without acquiring some), makes it inflationary by design.

Examples given suggest that this is a mediocre attempt to revitalize the local economy, without much of actual value. They suggest that shops should give a discount in Euros and collect the discounted amount in TEM. Too easy to cheat with this. Apart from personal barter of products and services, it doesn't offer much of a benefit.

No talk of security measures for their "centralised database" of transactions. If it grows enough it will soon be the target of the University of Volos Computer Department. Or the government itself. Too easy to kill.

That's my first view. I'll try to monitor it (f they come back online) and report more here.

Could I ask for a little more explanation?
Why would they need green addresses?
Would they accept only BTC coming from the green address to circulate? What happens when someone brings in BTC from somewhere else?
Why should they artificially increase the value of bitcoin from their green address?
Would that be an "isolated" blockchain? Could they drop the existing blockchain altogether and fork a new one, starting with a genesis block containing only the original bitcoins in the green address?
How would that be different from starting another alternative cryptocurrency?

I am really intrigued by these thoughts, and I've seen you mention them in another thread too. Have you written more about it anywhere else?

Thanks in advance.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

He's not talking about you. Unless the US is considered "exotic" now. The rest of the description fit more or less, but not the country.

He's talking about Goat.