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Re: [ANN] [ICO LIVE] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 17:56:43 UTC
Hi, I think that you should add 2fA at personal page  Undecided
Hi, in progress. Should be in production tomorrow
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Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 03:38:43 UTC
wao, ico INCHAIN ​​already begun. I was delighted to see his web ico, very profesianal. congratulations on the opening of this ICO. Grin

Thanks!
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 00:20:14 UTC
I have received the mail for the Ico from http://ico.inchain.io

The ICO "wallet" page is very nice, looking great Smiley

Cheers mate, appreciate it
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 00:19:40 UTC
ICO have started! Good luck to developers team! Wish you thousands of Bitcoins  Cheesy

Many thanks!
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 00:04:01 UTC
It is live!
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 27/10/2016, 00:02:28 UTC
Would you purchase the insurance policy as a trader for yourself?  
Also interesting point about Coinbase, what would they do if they got hacked and they do not have enough funds to recover all their accountholders?

I think the market really needs some insurance products.
Yes, I would purchase the insurance policy but under the certain conditions. Some time before I thought 3% is not expensive but now I think I would pay 2% max, 1% would be even better. I would also like to have an insurance against more events than just hacks. Exchange/wallet can lose some part of its assets not because of the hacks only. For example, earthquakes, fires, another catastrophes, hostile authorities actions, seizures, exchanges/wallets workers criminal activities, etc. I would absolutely purchase an insurance against my personal exchange account freeze or block. There may be scenarios when the exchanges clients funds will be closed/frozen selectively by the administration without any reason. This way the exchange can continue its operation for a long time taking away the users funds. And it won't be your insurance event in the current business model.

Regarding Coinbase, I am not its representative. I can only guess. As they say,
As you said everything depends on statistics which is pretty much unavailable because of the industry's very young age. Probably after Year 1 there will be more clarity on the market and we definitely have plans to add more events where our platform can be of some help.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 25/10/2016, 13:08:15 UTC
ICO of Inchain starts tomorrow. ICOrating team (icorating.com) is releasing a full review (business model, technical background, team, marketing) of this platform with the evaluation of its investment attractiveness and the review of its strengths and weaknesses.

 Links:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KfCUdV6p1kZBj6h4n-BHs-YOaNqC89Bq8h_oRJ7EPqs/edit?usp=sharing

That's impressive.
The idea is very good but its not clear how you calculate the final rating. Could you share the model?
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Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 25/10/2016, 00:14:29 UTC
Quote
Waiting for next questions

Where will you take the funds to support the operational expenses of InChain (your team) after the project launch?
Will you use the ICO funds? Or InChain DAO will decide? What will be the approximate size of that expenses for the first year?
Salaries of the developers, soft and hardware. We will form the budget and ask the investors to approve or amend it.
The use of the ICO funds as stated before:
- $750K pre-launch expenses
- $1M the Insurance fund



What about support team, managers, CEO's, secretaries, PR, etc? Office rental?
So the above expenses should be excluded from the project income to get the profits numbers.

Having the expenses you listed would mean that the business is going well.
Would you purchase the insurance policy as a trader for yourself? 
Also interesting point about Coinbase, what would they do if they got hacked and they do not have enough funds to recover all their accountholders?

And just to sum up:
- Nothing prevents the Inchain fund to generate returns equal to any other crypto currency funds
- Inchain DAO investors may vote for distribution of the income and receive it it the form of dividends
- Insurance-linked bonds may be an interesting investment instrument for passive investment strategies or diversification of the portfolios
- Insurance is needed for the industry
Obviously, there are some risks which are inherent in the industry and associated with any new project.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 25/10/2016, 00:09:39 UTC
Quote
1)   You compare a fund with an insurance platform pointing out only advantages of the fund and disadvantages of the platform. For example, I assume that the fund managers will be trading at some cryptoexchanges, so why don’t you add a risk that these exchanges may be compromised and the fund loses its money? Same story with the Ethereum network if the fund invests in ETH. I also would not say that there is no legal risk.

Not correct. The risks of compromised exchanges exist for the insurance platform too. Or you won't use any exchanges to purchase the crypto assets?
Or you mean the fund managers will store their funds at the exchanges? No, they won't. They will use the exchanges to buy and sell assets only, not to store them.
You also don't understand the Ethereum network risk. I mean your system is built on top of Ethereum and uses Ethereum smart contracts. If there are Ethereum network problems your system will have problems too. We all know about the hard forks.
http://forklog.net/ambisafe-urges-ethereum-to-revise-hardfork-conditions/
And yes, legal risks always exist for all legal structures.

We do understand the Ethereum network risks. The point I was trying to make is that every investor in ETH is quite sensitive to such risks as well.

I understand your point but insurance fund and investment fund may not have ETH in their portfolio (in theory) but your system is still built on top of Ethereum and has the above risks. So the risk of ETH price volatility and the risk of the platform functioning problems are absolutely different risks.
Moreover, the risks of ETH volatility are absolutely the same for all the funds with the same structure so they may be omitted in the comparison.

Agree. There is no alternatives yet.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 25/10/2016, 00:07:52 UTC
Quote
2)   Sorry, I can’t understand what you mean here. What is the connection between our fundraising and dividends?
Quote
Will be less than 10% if the ICO will have more than $1.75M.

Very simple. Anticipated income according to my analysis is $208 000.
1. ICO result - $1.75M. ROI for ICO investor = 208/1750 = 11.8%
2. ICO result - $3M. ROI for ICO investor = 208/3000 = 6.9%

That's interesting. How was the performance of the fund calculated? A few posts earlier you said that 50%-100% was not a problem for the industry.

You can check my previous posts. I took the number 10% from your financial plan.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1623519.msg16631252#msg16631252
Understand. Our goal is earn more of course.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 24/10/2016, 22:09:15 UTC
Quote
Waiting for next questions

Where will you take the funds to support the operational expenses of InChain (your team) after the project launch?
Will you use the ICO funds? Or InChain DAO will decide? What will be the approximate size of that expenses for the first year?
Salaries of the developers, soft and hardware. We will form the budget and ask the investors to approve or amend it.
The use of the ICO funds as stated before:
- $750K pre-launch expenses
- $1M the Insurance fund

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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 24/10/2016, 22:04:37 UTC
Quote
3)   Same risks as above.
What same risks? Can you enumerate them, please?
- Fund management
- Exchanges
- Legal
- Networks
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 24/10/2016, 22:02:57 UTC
Quote
2)   Sorry, I can’t understand what you mean here. What is the connection between our fundraising and dividends?
Quote
Will be less than 10% if the ICO will have more than $1.75M.

Very simple. Anticipated income according to my analysis is $208 000.
1. ICO result - $1.75M. ROI for ICO investor = 208/1750 = 11.8%
2. ICO result - $3M. ROI for ICO investor = 208/3000 = 6.9%

That's interesting. How was the performance of the fund calculated? A few posts earlier you said that 50%-100% was not a problem for the industry.
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Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 24/10/2016, 22:00:15 UTC
Quote
1)   You compare a fund with an insurance platform pointing out only advantages of the fund and disadvantages of the platform. For example, I assume that the fund managers will be trading at some cryptoexchanges, so why don’t you add a risk that these exchanges may be compromised and the fund loses its money? Same story with the Ethereum network if the fund invests in ETH. I also would not say that there is no legal risk.

Not correct. The risks of compromised exchanges exist for the insurance platform too. Or you won't use any exchanges to purchase the crypto assets?
Or you mean the fund managers will store their funds at the exchanges? No, they won't. They will use the exchanges to buy and sell assets only, not to store them.
You also don't understand the Ethereum network risk. I mean your system is built on top of Ethereum and uses Ethereum smart contracts. If there are Ethereum network problems your system will have problems too. We all know about the hard forks.
http://forklog.net/ambisafe-urges-ethereum-to-revise-hardfork-conditions/
And yes, legal risks always exist for all legal structures.

We do understand the Ethereum network risks. The point I was trying to make is that every investor in ETH is quite sensitive to such risks as well.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 24/10/2016, 18:34:34 UTC


I have to admit that this is much better, still not apples to apples though.
Also, it would be great if SpacemanOne can split his posts into several smaller ones, otherwise the posts are getting extremely large.

Let’s start with this one.
Quote
My main point is that ICO investors take the risks of the insurance fund performance but don't get all the fund profits - they get the profits part only. And in numbers it looks not very attractive now.

Your assumption is not clear enough. Why do you think that the majority would vote against the dividends? What this assumption is based on? Obviously, it depends on voting, we can’t know for sure what will happen.

The value of the coins reflects not only the reserves (bottom line intrinsic value) but also the fund performance (fund management) as well as the number of policies sold (insurance business).

Quote
I don't agree. At the non-transparent traditional markets it may be. But if at a certain moment the insurance fund shows some loss and the reserve fund can't cover it (everything can be seen in the blockchain) the bonds price will drop immediately.

Definitely the price of the bond may vary. However, the face value of the bond and coupon rates are certain. At the bond’s maturity date you receive the face value plus the coupon, this is the fundamental nature of any bond as a debt instrument as oppose to shares and currencies.

Regarding your calculations:
1)   You compare a fund with an insurance platform pointing out only advantages of the fund and disadvantages of the platform. For example, I assume that the fund managers will be trading at some cryptoexchanges, so why don’t you add a risk that these exchanges may be compromised and the fund loses its money? Same story with the Ethereum network if the fund invests in ETH. I also would not say that there is no legal risk.

Our goal is not to outperform such a fund but create a platform that can solve one of the most important problem of the crypto ecosystem.

2)   Sorry, I can’t understand what you mean here. What is the connection between our fundraising and dividends?
Quote
Will be less than 10% if the ICO will have more than $1.75M.

3)   Same risks as above.

Of course, everybody can invest and manage their portfolios if they have certain skills, enough time and courage. We do not question this at all.

The unique features of our platform are:
-   Insurance policies that can help traders and funds mitigating risks of exchange/wallet hacks (not available now)
-   Fixed income investment instruments (not available now)
-   DAO-like fund management (similar to offered by ICONOMI)
-   Altcoins with bottom line value (not available afaik)
-   A new niche and untapped market.

The advantages of investing in DAO:
-   Nonfinancial: involvement in decision-making process
-   Financial: dividends based on the earnings the platform makes including ROI (the fund) and insurance premiums.

Waiting for next questions  Smiley
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 23/10/2016, 16:41:08 UTC

1. Exchanges list. The fact that the exchanges list is not final is quite understandable and acceptable. What is not acceptable is to include the exchanges/wallets that CAN'T be insured by InChain technically according to the insurance strategy announced by InChain itself. It's a sign of disparaging and unprofessional approach to the business.
For example, the aforementioned Bitsquare. InChain claims it will insure centralized web wallets/exchanges only.
Bitsquare is a dectntralized exchange and will never store users private keys. It can't be hacked in a way that allows InChain insure it.
Coinbase is questionable too. Not for technical reasons but because their wallets are insured already and there will be no  many clients willing to insure them twice.
Coinomi - private keys are stored on users devices only. Questionable. Not a web wallet.
Mycelium - not a web wallet. Questionable.
Electrum - not a web wallet. Private keys never leave clients device. Questionable.

Almost a half of the table is wallets/exhcanges that probably won't be insured by InChain due to its own policy.

I have an example for you. Let's assume I'm trying to open a vegetarian shop and need some money to start this business. You are my potential investor. I have prepared a presentation for you. One of my presentation part is a list of the basic products I'm going to sell. It looks like this:

- beef
- chicken
- lamb
- potatoes
- rice
- apples
- peaches

You are asking me: 'What does it mean, isn't it a vegetaian shop?'
I answer: 'Oh, it's just an example'
- Example of what?
- ...

Would you give your hard earned money to the applicant who doesn't even care to compose a realistic presentation?
I understand word 'example' as an event that can really happen in future and has a probability of more than 0. Unfortunately, the table from your financial model doesn't fit my definition because several exchanges/wallets will not be even considered for insurance.

2. Financial model
Not only the list of exchanges but the whole financial model will be different in the real product.
The blog post doesn't tell us anything about the start phase of the project and initial funding. But some forum posts give us more information.
In Russian thread Sergey mentions that $0.9-1.05M from $1.75M will go to the Insurance Fund.
This fact changes the financial model significantly. One million dollars is just omitted in your financial model example. At the start of the project ICO participants will take insurance risks too, there will be no bond holders from the start.
How do you think, one million dollars is worth mentioning in the financial model?

3. Your question.

Quote
However, it is not clear why you think that 15% of the market you estimated (1M BTC) is that much unrealistic, given the total absence of any competition.

I never said it is unrealistic. It is my estimation of the potential market. So I agree it is realistic. But with the existing financial model the ROI for ICO participants will be about 10% and is fully dependent on the insurance fund performance. The insurance fund will be composed of different crypto assets. So I don't understand an ICO investor motivation. He can just invest his funds into one of Iconomi funds or create his own portfolio with the same assets as your insurance fund. Adding the risk of losing all the profits (or even more if several hacks will happen during the first year, please remember that ICO investors will take the risks at the start of the project) is not worth of gaining additional 3% ROI. Moreover, there can be no dividends at all if the DAO votes accordingly.
As I mentioned before just holding your funds in BTC is a more safe and profitable strategy.

1) Don't think it is worth discussing the list of platforms we might insure accounts of. As we said, those were proposed by the community. Feel free to propose any platforms you believe we should work with.

2) Why do you think there will be no investors in bonds at the very beginning? There is no established fixed income instruments in the market. This $1M will form the liquidity reserves placed in the cold storages. It also will represent the bottom line of the value of our coins as they will have some sort of intrinsic value in this case.

3) No disrespect but you are mixing several unrelated things together.
As an Investor you can invest in one of the Iconomi funds as you mentioned or invest in the Inchain DAO. To simplify the case, let's say they perform equally. Thus the difference is that in the Inchain DAO case the participants may vote for not paying dividends and to increase the reserves. This will increase the intrinsic value of our coins because the reserves belong to the Inchain DAO. If you are not happy with the decision made by the majority of the DAO you can freely sell you tokens and the price of which will reflect the increase in reserves. So you will get your share of profits anyway.
If you decided to invest in bonds, you just diversify your investment portfolio having both fixed and non fixed income instruments. Your return as the bond investor does not depend on the DAO performance at all. All you should be concerned with is the hacks.

Overall, we should assess different types of investments such as crypto currencies and crypto currency funds, bonds and the DAO separately as they imply different types of risks and rewards.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 23/10/2016, 12:30:44 UTC
Quote


Actually, I expected for some excuses for not warning the community that you financial model is just an example and the real model will be different. You wrote that your exchanges list is an example in 30 days after the post was published. No warnings in the blog text.
Would you show this financial model to a venture investor? I doubt. Even if you did you wouldn't get the money.
So why do you show it to the community? Because you think they won't read it or will just trust you without any verifications.

If you say I'm wrong please tell me where I'm wrong.
All the numbers from your financial model are not real and will be different in the real product.
Number of exchanges - not real.
Each exchange share - not real.
Insurance premium - not real.
Coupon rate - not real.
Total amount insured - not real.
Thank you for mentioning about your survey and saying that conditions are 'editable'.

So if all the above numbers are just an example why do finalize your post with words 'As you can see Inchain earns in each case'? The conclusion is based on the example numbers that are far from reality. So you should write 'As you can see from our example InChain can be profitable but only with the numbers we gave you. They will be different in reality'. That would be fare at least.

Are you sure there will be bonds in your real financial model?
Are you ready to give me 100 BTC if there will be no bonds in your real financial model?

Well, we have never said that the list of the exchanges is the one we will be working with. We conducted a survey among those who are interested in the project and created a model based on their expectations.
Obviously, the platform is not not even in the development stage yet. All we can publish for now is our projections based on inputs and assumptions.
Regarding the blog post you refer to, it looks quite reasonable. However, it is not clear why you think that 15% of the market you estimated (1M BTC) is that much unrealistic, given the total absence of any competition.
Moreover, we have never claimed that we are going to stay away from the Chinese market.



One more thing, If people have their accounts insured, they might increase their exposure to exchanges and online wallets rather than cold storages.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 23/10/2016, 12:00:50 UTC
Quote


Actually, I expected for some excuses for not warning the community that you financial model is just an example and the real model will be different. You wrote that your exchanges list is an example in 30 days after the post was published. No warnings in the blog text.
Would you show this financial model to a venture investor? I doubt. Even if you did you wouldn't get the money.
So why do you show it to the community? Because you think they won't read it or will just trust you without any verifications.

If you say I'm wrong please tell me where I'm wrong.
All the numbers from your financial model are not real and will be different in the real product.
Number of exchanges - not real.
Each exchange share - not real.
Insurance premium - not real.
Coupon rate - not real.
Total amount insured - not real.
Thank you for mentioning about your survey and saying that conditions are 'editable'.

So if all the above numbers are just an example why do finalize your post with words 'As you can see Inchain earns in each case'? The conclusion is based on the example numbers that are far from reality. So you should write 'As you can see from our example InChain can be profitable but only with the numbers we gave you. They will be different in reality'. That would be fare at least.

Are you sure there will be bonds in your real financial model?
Are you ready to give me 100 BTC if there will be no bonds in your real financial model?

Well, we have never said that the list of the exchanges is the one we will be working with. We conducted a survey among those who are interested in the project and created a model based on their expectations.
Obviously, the platform is not not even in the development stage yet. All we can publish for now is our projections based on inputs and assumptions.
Regarding the blog post you refer to, it looks quite reasonable. However, it is not clear why you think that 15% of the market you estimated (1M BTC) is that much unrealistic, given the total absence of any competition.
Moreover, we have never claimed that we are going to stay away from the Chinese market.

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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 22/10/2016, 10:35:30 UTC
- How will Ethereum smart contracts handle Bitcoin bonds and insuranse policies? Ethereum smart contracts can directly control ETH or Ethereum-based tokens only.

Bonds and policies are handled in the Ethereum blockchain only. If the policy in issued for a BTC account then the bond is nominated in BTC.

For such a case, Inchain based on the Ethereum smart contract’s data may initiate a payout from a bitcoin wallet. Every transaction (or a set of transactions) should be signed by a certain number of members of the Insurance committee to go through. These members act as escrows, signing genuine transactions.
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Re: [ANN] [ICO] Inchain - insurance for the crypto economy
by
Inchain.io
on 13/10/2016, 09:47:21 UTC
Any updates on the legal status of Inchain?

Which countries are you looking getting registered in and what are the plans for dealing with identity requirements for token holders?

Hi,

We are looking for the best jurisdiction for Inchain, the candidates: Switzerland, UK, Hong Kong.

Quote from the article you posted earlier https://medium.com/@piersbxd/should-a-dao-have-a-legal-entity-715a9cf31301#.v4wxpbir1

Quote
In some ways a DAO legally may be based wherever you want it to be, although countries with large numbers of free trade deals are generally going to be preferred if you do decide on the legal thing. USA/EU are good starting points.

Is there a reason that all of your candidates are outside US/EU?

As far as I can tell, of the three only Switzerland allows anonymous partners and requires that at least one director lives in Switzerland.

For Switzerland and UK avoiding double taxation on dividends could be an issue for token holders.

Compliance in Hong Kong does seem pretty reasonable but as far as I can tell still requires all token holders to be registered with the company.

Guys

We are exploring the options and have not made any decisions yet.
Feel free to make your proposals.
Obviously there are pros and cons for every jurisdiction.
More details a bit later...