Blabla.

1. Invest in me, I am BTC I only gain in value. However, nobody actually creates a justifyable increase in value outside of speculation/being told so(150% gainz!!111). It is thus "empty". There is no reason a BTC should be worth something other than people who "believe the story".

2. Get told: Oh sure, cash out anytime you want with the profits made! It's a currency!

3. If all BTC holders were to attempt to cash out RIGHT NOW, there would be a huge percentage that would not be able to find any takers.

4. Different to ponzi in 0 ways.

5.

6. Profit!

Currently 1308 accepted, 10 stale here.

IMHO someone saying you should not be (at the very least: not heavily) invested in BTC has more integrity than the "Blind following the blind" / "all fiat is ponzi and doomed zomg" people who keep showing just how much understanding of macro / economics they have in various threads of their own special kind of troll-dom.

Ach, sweet caress of many lulz.

I'm willing to not just sell all my current BTC (all three of them!) for 50$, but I will also promise to sell you the next 20 BTC I will / would mine for that fixed price, regardless of whether it goes over 50$.

I would also promise to only ever sell to you and at that price for the next 12 months should I manage to exceed 20 BTC generation in that timeframe.

Offer to you, and everyone else in the BTC community. Like a futures trade.

Ah what the heck, I'd even do it for 40$, just to give you that 10$ extra cream on top that is in the thread title.

Any takers?

Barely anyone in the community listens to themselves.

If the majority of BTC holders/owners are looking to exit BTC for real currency, then obviously there will be a finite number of "trading places" cycles of BTC seller looking to exit the BTC holding status vs new market participating looking to enter the BTC holding status.

Unless the BTC "economy" were to offer a service(better: more than one) that DOES NOT EXIST PURCHASEABLE IN ANY OTHER SHAPE OR FORM OUTSIDE OF BTC, there is no reason for someone to have or hold BTC if they can come to attain the service either more safely, quickly, commonplace, securely, etc pp by means of normal currency(exception: other significant advantages in some shape or form that also get recognized by enough "outsiders" to gain traction and make the adoption of something new instead of something established more viable/attractive).

The exchange to BTC itself already carries significant risk (like buying tokens for an arcade - the funny money only works in wonderland, and if you leave it before spending it all, it's worthless weight in your pocket), and is only mitigateable if the risk of a sudden disappearance of BTC markets or value is low or nonexistant. Currently still, you can at least cash out again, even if there are value swings.

All of these basics lead to the shaky foundation that BTC currently stands on. Until you find a whole bunch of creative/innovative/unique people that will only offer their goods and services for BTC, you really have no compelling argument why BTC should work / be used.

And if really what you are inferring were/is true, and the only main/major purpose is speculation and then cashing out, then at some point the jig is up and the constant outstream of BTC for capital will so heavily outweigh the market structures, that prices will go bust and the buyers will vanish to negligible to nonexistant amounts, as they have nowhere left to go / no more reason to join the game.

This is also why people calll it one big ponzi scheme; if that assumption is correct, then you need to constantly exploit either the BTC using morons that keep buying more BTC in hopes of them ever growing more valuable(mostly through the moron next to them ALSO buying them for the same reason..look guys - who is going to cash both of you out if you are the only two guys left with all BTC in the end? Now just extend this thought to the speculator pool in total..), i.e. you keep praying the guys who have thought it a great investment keep working in the real world for real money to donate to those cashing out of BTC, or, option B, you need an influx of people suckered into the concept via media hype.

However in neither version is there an endgame that does not end with those that have exited before the music stopped being the lucky ones, and a select few with literally most if not all of the BTC left in their hands without much of a counter-value or cashout option.

I don't really see how this is solveable, and I've already heard all the "Yea, but there's people already accpeting BTC for xyz.." and "If only 10% of the world adopted BTC" delusions..

From the OPs own post he basically lays out a premise that leaves no other option than deck of cards => mess.

Of course if someone DOES find some kind of magic bullet killer app/use/whatever that all of this may or not be good for, maybe you can build something sustainable. Others have found ways, too(second life, MMORPGs, other pseudo-"ecosystems" in form of entertainment and services), so it's not completely impossible.
It's just a big empty slate and giant question mark as of now.

I still maintain that unless someone comes up with something along the way, there is a very real and constantly growing risk of the cycle running out of "feeding cash".

I am not sure if anyone has noticed, but ever since the reopening of MtGox, there have been literally insane BTC placements, both on bids as well as on offers.

Now, I could understand the offer side; there are various BTC millionaires who might want a steady trickle for cashing out.

But someone is constantly placing and replacing buy orders (single line orderbook entries) for 2-5000 BTC x 14-16$ (as well as staged 5xx BT increments), i.e. over $70k worth.

Now, not everyone has that much spare cash to throw around just as speculation / could-lose-all money.

So, my first thoughts were: Who is this? Is this just one guy or several? Are people trying to "launder" their money?
What's going on?

Then I thought about both use and abuse fantasies, such as: There have been complaints that the price isn't steady and that this is detrimental to people who might want to look at it for business.
What if some of the early adopters with a few hundred thousand BTC in their pockets made a pact to "stonewall" / "fence" prices in between a window, say 14-18$, or maybe an only sloooowly sliding window (say 0.1$ more a day?) where they cash-in/out in order to keep price contained?

Which, of course, lead to the next thought: What if the theoretical market-cornering theory of a few powerful players is actually playing out? I.e. they put in buys so huge that the market literally can't get past them, and then place sells 1-5$ over their bottom-barrier, thus continually ping-ponging market price between the bounds and making 10-30% profit each time.

What I mean to say is: I don't believe that this is the "same" market as before the MtGox hack. I think something happened, changed or came into the market, and I'm basically asking whether anyone knows anything or anyone who is putting up these sums.


(And no, I won't believe you if you have a 300+ pixel banner saying GOX'd lulz and claiming you're the BTC millionaire doing it for shits and giggles and have I seen the BTC is going to 1000000$ thread yet)

This one definitely and 100% got sent to the disclosed MtGox hacked database email. I think I will  deactivate it now, despite all the fun stuff that's been trickling in..

There was some vivid discussion over here http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23705.0 where the list of hacked passwords was published whether it was possible they could all have been brute forced.

Whether someone manages to get your email login via brute force, dictionary or social hacking/phishing, they could one way or another gain access to it(unless you are implying email accounts are the most unhackable thing in the world).

Having a strong and new email password is bad and a turrrrribull hassle(this is how it seems to be portrayed at the moment) how?


Anyway, I'm done with this thread.
In the future everyone can go suit themselves and I'll keep any heads-up about security issues to myself.

I suspect the people targeted(if it was more than just me, who knows how much or little they tried) are those that were part of the leaked DBs and lists.

If you're a "newly joined", you should not be in those.

Would love to hear some official word on this, even if - hopefully - this is all just a "storm in a waterglass" as opposed to anything really/truly dangerous.

I mostly want to know my (new) data isn't compromised and that this was indeed their official notification email.

No I think our time would be much better spent with every single contribution other than mine basically trying to negatively sanction any attempts at rooting out risks towards real money, BTC and accounts while I get my mind boggled by that some more.

One other thing:

This email with 100% certainty arrived at the NEW email address I entered on the claims page.
So if this is NOT a valid MtGox E-Mail to warn me of a malicious password recovery attempt by a third party, but someone else's mail, then the NEW email / email database must have gotten out somehow, which in turn would have other implications.

The mail I supplied is solely in use for MtGox.

--------


As for fearmongering: I still have my MtGox account, I still have my BTC in there and I still have my money in there.

I don't see why I would be or should be fearmongering, let alone what good it would be to me, personally. So WTF people.

It's a warning. It says warning. That's what it is supposed to be. If warning someone causes fear instead of awareness then that's up to the person receiving the warning.

I tried to lay out what's happening. I made a suggestion for safety.
I did not suggest panicking, selling all BTC and closing the account.

See the difference?

Either a) some is blindly trying to recover account passwords via reset attempts or b) someone is mass-mailing people.

How is either of those things if it is actually real and happening "unsubstantiated"?
It's one of the two. I got the mail.

Something is happening by people who are not well-willed towards normal users, I posted about it.

You on the other hand are just being a dick about trying to tell people to be vigilant/safe.

Okay, I admit, I put this OP and thread in simple and broad enough terms.

What I was saying was: If your old email password is still the same as it was before reclaiming your account, change it.

If you did not, you are still at risk of whoever may have gotten into your MtGox possibly also having your email password(if, for example, you used the same one for MtGox or it got bruteforced/guessed then already).

Again, I love how the common reaction is "Fuck you for trying to prevent theft and warning people".

The mail simply said to report back to them if this request was made fraudulently and listed the IP address of the guy who tried it => the one I posted in the OP.


Maybe someone could get an official comment and see whether Mt.Gox@w001.mo.us.xta.net is a "proper" MtGox email address / domain or fake, too.

My point was to warn people to change the password to their email accounts if they haven't done so already.
I'm aware that anyone who had one of the leaked lists could just mass-request password recovery via either username or email account; that's kind of what I am saying in the first place.


--
I like the part where the community's first reaction to someone trying to spare some people a loss of their account is "LULZ"  and "BLahrblerpyeawhatever".

And I thought I was a troll to the BTC userbase.

You had me going for a second there..but no, this email arrived to the NEW address that I added AFTER the claim/reset page.

So either that got leaked, or it was indeed a password reset attempt.

Hi,

I just had notification that someone on

80.237.226.75
aka
tor5.anonymizer.ccc.de  (a TOR node, aka anonymous making onion routing network)

tried to reset my MtGox password via email.

THIS IS LIKELY HAPPENING EN MASSE TO ALL MTGOX USERS!

Please be aware that your MtGox account is _STILL_ at risk and that although it is not MtGox's fault, you should ASAP change all of your email addresses and passwords to new, non-guessable entries so that your MtGox account won't be hacked/stolen.



Edit:
This email with 100% certainty arrived at the NEW email address I entered on the claims page.
So if this is NOT a valid MtGox E-Mail to warn me of a malicious password recovery attempt by a third party(option A), but someone else's mail(option B), then the NEW email / email database must have gotten out somehow, which in turn would have other implications.

The mail I supplied is solely in use for MtGox.



End of PSA.

If I manage to log into the web interface once during a DDOS then that IP is whitelisted, right?
My IP changes "only" once a day, so if I can get it to log in once, I should be good for that day.