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Showing 8 of 8 results by SillyWallet
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Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 24/03/2021, 10:43:44 UTC
The bank ABSOLUTELY makes sure that the cheque is real and valid before they even bother looking to see if there's enough money registered to the account that it is drawn against.
I honestly assumed cheques were printed to be unique, making the piece of paper the proof in itself. I never used cheques in my life, so assumptions are all I have, sadly...

How do we designate an "official decider" that gets to choose which transaction actually IS first?
I get that first-come-first-served alone is just a beacon for frauds, but I still don't get how the mining makes it more secure (yes, I am that dense. Sorry...). I may need to watch the B3B1 video a few dozen more times....
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Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 12/03/2021, 13:55:53 UTC
ok.. back to basics
I know it isn't all that fun for pros to explain it that basic, so THANK YOU for taking your time! It is highly appreciated, and I want you to know that!
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imagine i have a chequebook..
<snip>
so a cheque is not cleared until the bank makes the transfer where only one recipients cheque is going to clear. (as it should be)
But with a bank, they would simply confirm the first cheque cashed (Dave), when there was money enough, and deny the second (Betty), when the account was too low. Right? There is no real evaluation of either cheque's validity, just first come first served, and maybe some consequence for the writer of the cheques. Or so I think, never wrote or cashed a cheque in my life...
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so.. the mining is replacing the bank clearing house.
.. this answers your first question in first post about why users cant just collect transactions and deem them as valid independently
Sorry for being dense (it is an old crse of mine...), but I still fail to see how the mining truly adds to the validity/trust in the included transactions. I think I am missing some clever detail. To me, speedy confirmation and thus spreading information on a transaction makes the difference, just as it would with the two cheques example.
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.....
<snip>
now to stop other bank clearing houses making multiple batches in milliseconds declaring them the sole central bank
the batch ID have to go through a lengthy process of of calculations. to get a special batch id with several leading zeros.

the first bank clearing house to get this result. and check that the data and ID correspond. wins
and that batch(block)) is declared the confirmed block. and all the transactions listed within it are declared as confirmed(cleared)

inshort dont accept a payment as final/cleared until its confirmed and in a block

This actually puts a bit more of a point on it, but still leaves some.... confusion. Demanding PoW means a 'bank' cannot simply pack doubles by the thousands. Which ever 'cheque' gets cashed into a block supported by PoW gets confirmed. And if later blocks have the other cheque, they get discarded as doubles. I kiiinda get that. But how is this an improvement over the initial spread of the transaction through the network? First come is still first served, it seems. The blocks just cements one batch of transactions over another. The network should have already weeded out doubles by discarding the later transaction.
Those nodes cummulatively contribute to the decentralization and alos the digitization of the ledger system. Normally, these things were been done by one person or institution in the regular regional way of finance but looking at it from a decentralised system, it eliminates the need for trust and also the possibility of an easy hack. it is necessary to have all those nodes as they all help to make the network safer.
I know the basics, the problem is that I am not quite getting how this exact method adds significantly to the validity. The overall theory makes perfect sense and is, in a way, beautiful, but there are just some aspects that I feel a need to really pick apart to get a firm grasp on. This is one such aspect.
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Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 20:38:17 UTC

Perhaps rows and rows of text to read isn't how you learn best. If you're more of a visual or auditory learner, then this might help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC-nXj3Ng4

3B1B is soooo good, his was one of the first videos I watched back in the day on the topic!! If you know more like him, let me know, he is a king in my book!

its not just a 10minute relay race of first passed the finish line
the winner also has to pass a drug test to make sure there is no nasty stuff(bad transactions) inside their body(block)

the first winner with a clean test(transaction list) result is accepted.

everyone then keeps that list(result) and memorialises it. and then the next race begins

a malicious miner at race 2 who wants to edit the results of race 1. has to run race 1 and then do race 2
but by that time malicious miner is at race 2 honest racers are on their 3rd race. so the malicious runner has to run 2x speed to catch up

it costs alot to run 2x the number of systems as the network. so he better be sure he can win and not get caught if he hopes to take the lead and get himself declared the new victor of the last few races and previous victors declared void

This.... makes an awful lot of sense to me. I'm not sure I am quite there, but this makes me think of it in a more compact and meaningful way, thank you! Could you perhaps elaborate on the metaphor? I may also have uestions based on that metaphor, but I need to chew on this a bit...
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Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 19:10:22 UTC
(Not going to quite everyone due to post length, but to Poker, Franky and Ranochigo, thanks, it all helps me zero in on what I am failing to understand!)

What I get at this point is that PoW takes effort, hence the source seems more serious/honest. Like the woman putting on high heels that she hates to show that she respects the host of the party enough to make an effort. But not every transaction is performed by someone mining a hash, so I still do not entirely get how a mined block verifies the individual transaction better than the network confirmation?

I will reread the paper, maybe I just overlooked something the first seven times. I'm not known as the brightest bulb, but I get tired of my buddy being all smug about me handing him money to invest without me knowing what he does, that smug little s.o.b. :p
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Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 18:38:59 UTC
I guess you want it all explained to you but if you feel like reading something for yourself, read up on the Byzantine fault.
I'd love to have it all explained to me in perfect detail, but I am realistic enough to simply accept my own ignorance and try to work from there. The link was good, very interesting and lots of background, thanks!! However...
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Blockchain and PoW solved it, giving security to the system as @ranochigo has explained.
... I still don't fully see the connection. Is it that PoW makes one version of a blockchain more credible because someone invested the work? That kinda makes sense, what my ex called "the high heels proof". While I get the immediate notion of that, it seems like a leap to make one equal the other?

Again, I apologize for my dullwittedness, I know it grinds against some people. I just feel like I am grappling with a very big horse from the wrong end. That... can end badly :p
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Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 18:18:44 UTC
Nope. Proof Of Work is essential in making Bitcoin work in the first place. It acts as a consensus mechanism among nodes to decide which are the transactions to be accepting and considered as valid.
(warning: I may be incredibly dense here, treat me like the slow but sincere child in the playground)
I never quite got why PoW makes one possible chain more valid than others? Comparing chains would make it possible to track it back to the divergence, right? And aren't there timestamps in place that can then determine which chain was 'diverged' last, hence would be the copy?
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Board Bitcoin Discussion
Topic OP
What is the actual point of the many working parts of Bitcoin/blockchains?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 18:02:52 UTC
Trigger warning: I am a complete noob at bitcoin, just trying to wrap my head around a lot of it.

I'm watching a string of videos on bitcoin, and a thought keeps popping up in my head: Is this whole ting a bit too overly complicated?

My main reason for thinking this is that the idea of simply having transactions validated across the blockchain (feel free to fry me if I am being ignorant about how things work) seems to be enough to make the entire concept work. Mining, the long hashes, all the other stuff I barely even fathom, it all seems like just painting flames on your bike to make it go faster. It seems unnecesary. If I make a transaction and that transaction has to be confirmed by dozens of nodes that track all the transactions, isn't that a pretty hard thing to outsmart already?

I'm not saying the other things should not be done, I just would like to understand the value they add to the whole process. Because every wallet essentially meeting up to check if a transaction is a-okay seems like the best system to me, all on its own!
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Topic
Board Project Development
Topic OP
Weirdest bitcoin/altcoin project?
by
SillyWallet
on 10/03/2021, 17:27:00 UTC
Just trying to get through lockdown without going crazy, need some laughs. So, what is the weirdest bitcoin, altcoin or whatever coin or even blockchain project or idea you ever came across? Doesn't need to be succesful, just weird enough to make for a good story  Smiley