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Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 10/08/2017, 12:33:07 UTC
One Page back...I sorted the issue by downloading openssl 1.0.1 from their website and copying the "bn.h" after install to \usr\local\include\openssl

It then builds without issue. Hope it helps Smiley


hi guys i try to build.sh this https://github.com/krnlx/ccminer-skunk-krnlx  on terminal but i cant manage to make this ccminer work
can u help me how to use this in nvoc thanks

God Bless us All


Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 09/08/2017, 14:02:12 UTC
Thanks appreciate the reply, think i'll wait for Fullzero to compile a trusted version direct from the Git if he doesn't mind. Windows version running faster than Palgin so far though.


Hi, any chance you would be able to compile the new open source miner for Skunk? I am running into the same issue with the SSL error as ccminer2.2.

Cryptoblog announced it a couple of days ago. The Git for it is here: https://github.com/krnlx/ccminer-skunk-krnlx

Many thanks as always!

Hello,

Please see this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2070862.msg20713903#msg20713903

Hope it helps...
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 09/08/2017, 13:19:16 UTC
Hi, any chance you would be able to compile the new open source miner for Skunk? I am running into the same issue with the SSL error as ccminer2.2.

Cryptoblog announced it a couple of days ago. The Git for it is here: https://github.com/krnlx/ccminer-skunk-krnlx

Sorted it, replaced the openssl "bn.h" file with a new version, build working correctly after that Smiley

Many thanks as always!
Post
Topic
Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN] Signatum - New Algorithm - Fair Launch - No Premine - Cryptopia
by
WarwickNZ
on 30/07/2017, 13:57:50 UTC
UPD: https://github.com/palginpav/ccminer/releases/download/1.1/ccminer-1.1-skunk.tar.gz - Fixed Linux binary, now working not only on high-end CPUs, also a bit different kernel code and built with CUDA 7.5. Please, test and reply.

Thank you!

Works perfectly for me!

I/m running Ubuntu 16.04 with Celeron G3900, and Cuda 8.0 and Nvidia 384.
Thanks for the hard work palgin
how do you make it work?
mine cannot find CUDA 7.5:

./ccminer: error while loading shared libraries: libcudart.so.7.5: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

No go on nvOC for me either, same shared library error even with the massive tool kit download from the older post.

Appreciate your work all the same.
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 27/07/2017, 02:19:57 UTC
Hello fullzero,
After a bunch of research and try, I built ccminer 2.2 successfully on nvOC 0018.

The previous build break is due to the openssl version,

Code:
m1@m1-desktop:~$ openssl version
OpenSSL 1.1.1-dev  xx XXX xxxx

You used a dev build of openssl in nvOC, ccminer doesn't support it. I download source code of openssl v1.0.2l from openssl.org, build the code, create a few soft links to replace the v1.1.1, it finally works. Not sure if this change breaks other things.

I also built alexis78 fork, https://github.com/alexis78/ccminer, it requires one more step, replace cuda-7.5 to cuda-8.0 in configure.sh.

I'm looking forward these miners in nvOC 0019.

Using linux requires some technical backgrounds, fortunately I was a windows developer Grin


Thanks car1999;

this was helpful.

the problem with tp2.2 on nvOC was a file in the openssl: bn.h.  I swapped it with the version it was looking for and this resolved all the related errors.

Also the cuda version does need to be changed in configure.sh as you described, but also for 1000 series GPUs Makefile.am must be altered with the correct Arch flag, 61 for the 1000 series.

I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.


Hi,

I just tried these out following your instructions and just get "illegal instruction" from the miner, any thoughts?

Thanks Smiley  

What coin are you mining, when this occurs?


I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.

The alexis78 miner appears to be OK (at least /home/m1/ASccminer/ccminer --help works), but the and tpruvot miners exit on my rig with an illegal-instruction error.  My rig runs on a Celeron G3920 (Skylake core).

(The help output worked for the alexis78 miner, but when it tried mining with it, it fell over.)

What coin are you mining?


g4560 CPU for me, "illegal instruction" on ASccminer on --benchmark too  Sad

I only tested these on a v0018 image (different from the one I compiled on) on the same computer I compiled them on.  I didn't think compiling the miner was CPU specific.
  I will test on some of my rigs that have similar CPUs to the ones you both have reported using; and recompile the clients if necessary.

Also what GPUs are you using on these rigs?


This is just when attempting to launch miner from terminal, unable to get either of them to mine or attempt to mine anything. I've since tried updating openssl and building myself but can't seem to get it to pick up the new version so still throws the build error...lacking the linux skills. Mining with Gigabyte 1070s on nvOC v18 G4560 (don't know if that's relevant)

I tested and had the same results; so I re-compiled both on a G1840.  This should allow for all CPUs; please test the updated download link on the OP and let me know.

Thanks, OK so the new ones didn't work initially until I made the file have executable permissions and now it runs the benchmark but refuses to start stratum due to an "illegal instruction", i'm trying to mine Signatum with these switches:

./ccminer -a skunk -o stratum+tcp://sigt.suprnova.cc:7106 -u USERNAME -p PASSWORD -i 25

Would be awesome if we can get this going for everyones benefit by far most profitable mining coin out there right now Smiley


EDIT: So I just noticed that some of the skunk algo files are missing from the TPccminer folder, which were present in the gitclone of "https://github.com/tpruvot/ccminer/tree/linux" I did when trying to get it going. Would doing another build of the latest version sort the issue?
 


I think you may have the login and worker syntax incorrect, or you have not created the worker you are using before hand at suprnova.


add exe with the cmd:

Code:
chmod 755 '/home/m1/TP_2_2/ccminer'


then add the following to 1bash:
Code:
COIN="SIGT"


Code:
SIGT_WORKER="nvOC"
SIGT_ADDRESS="fullzero22"
SIGT_POOL="stratum+tcp://sigt.suprnova.cc:7106"


Code:
if [ $COIN == "SIGT" ]
then
HCD='/home/m1/TPccminer/ccminer'
ADDR="$SIGT_ADDRESS.$SIGT_WORKER"

screen -dmS miner $HCD -a skunk -o $SIGT_POOL -u $ADDR -p x -i 25

if [ $LOCALorREMOTE == "LOCAL" ]
then
screen -r miner
fi

BITCOIN="theGROUND"

while [ $BITCOIN == "theGROUND" ]
do
sleep 60
done
fi


or use the line:


Code:
'/home/m1/TP_2_2/ccminer' -a skunk -o stratum+tcp://sigt.suprnova.cc:7106 -u fullzero22.nvOC -p x -i 25


in guake terminal

Works for me:

https://s1.postimg.org/5veu8edmn/SIGT.png

Thanks for the reply, appreciate you looking into it. I think the issue must have been me overlooking that the CPU is actually different on my test rig...not ideal I know! I tried it again with the recompiled version and chmod on another rig with g4560 and it seems to have done the trick!

Have you got an address I can donate # / are mining Signatum yourself?
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 26/07/2017, 23:03:17 UTC
Hello fullzero,
After a bunch of research and try, I built ccminer 2.2 successfully on nvOC 0018.

The previous build break is due to the openssl version,

Code:
m1@m1-desktop:~$ openssl version
OpenSSL 1.1.1-dev  xx XXX xxxx

You used a dev build of openssl in nvOC, ccminer doesn't support it. I download source code of openssl v1.0.2l from openssl.org, build the code, create a few soft links to replace the v1.1.1, it finally works. Not sure if this change breaks other things.

I also built alexis78 fork, https://github.com/alexis78/ccminer, it requires one more step, replace cuda-7.5 to cuda-8.0 in configure.sh.

I'm looking forward these miners in nvOC 0019.

Using linux requires some technical backgrounds, fortunately I was a windows developer Grin


Thanks car1999;

this was helpful.

the problem with tp2.2 on nvOC was a file in the openssl: bn.h.  I swapped it with the version it was looking for and this resolved all the related errors.

Also the cuda version does need to be changed in configure.sh as you described, but also for 1000 series GPUs Makefile.am must be altered with the correct Arch flag, 61 for the 1000 series.

I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.


Hi,

I just tried these out following your instructions and just get "illegal instruction" from the miner, any thoughts?

Thanks Smiley  

What coin are you mining, when this occurs?


I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.

The alexis78 miner appears to be OK (at least /home/m1/ASccminer/ccminer --help works), but the and tpruvot miners exit on my rig with an illegal-instruction error.  My rig runs on a Celeron G3920 (Skylake core).

(The help output worked for the alexis78 miner, but when it tried mining with it, it fell over.)

What coin are you mining?


g4560 CPU for me, "illegal instruction" on ASccminer on --benchmark too  Sad

I only tested these on a v0018 image (different from the one I compiled on) on the same computer I compiled them on.  I didn't think compiling the miner was CPU specific.
  I will test on some of my rigs that have similar CPUs to the ones you both have reported using; and recompile the clients if necessary.

Also what GPUs are you using on these rigs?


This is just when attempting to launch miner from terminal, unable to get either of them to mine or attempt to mine anything. I've since tried updating openssl and building myself but can't seem to get it to pick up the new version so still throws the build error...lacking the linux skills. Mining with Gigabyte 1070s on nvOC v18 G4560 (don't know if that's relevant)

I tested and had the same results; so I re-compiled both on a G1840.  This should allow for all CPUs; please test the updated download link on the OP and let me know.

Thanks, OK so the new ones didn't work initially until I made the file have executable permissions and now it runs the benchmark but refuses to start stratum due to an "illegal instruction", i'm trying to mine Signatum with these switches:

./ccminer -a skunk -o stratum+tcp://sigt.suprnova.cc:7106 -u USERNAME -p PASSWORD -i 25

Would be awesome if we can get this going for everyones benefit by far most profitable mining coin out there right now Smiley


EDIT: So I just noticed that some of the skunk algo files are missing from the TPccminer folder, which were present in the gitclone of "https://github.com/tpruvot/ccminer/tree/linux" I did when trying to get it going. Would doing another build of the latest version sort the issue?
 
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 26/07/2017, 20:37:54 UTC
Hello fullzero,
After a bunch of research and try, I built ccminer 2.2 successfully on nvOC 0018.

The previous build break is due to the openssl version,

Code:
m1@m1-desktop:~$ openssl version
OpenSSL 1.1.1-dev  xx XXX xxxx

You used a dev build of openssl in nvOC, ccminer doesn't support it. I download source code of openssl v1.0.2l from openssl.org, build the code, create a few soft links to replace the v1.1.1, it finally works. Not sure if this change breaks other things.

I also built alexis78 fork, https://github.com/alexis78/ccminer, it requires one more step, replace cuda-7.5 to cuda-8.0 in configure.sh.

I'm looking forward these miners in nvOC 0019.

Using linux requires some technical backgrounds, fortunately I was a windows developer Grin


Thanks car1999;

this was helpful.

the problem with tp2.2 on nvOC was a file in the openssl: bn.h.  I swapped it with the version it was looking for and this resolved all the related errors.

Also the cuda version does need to be changed in configure.sh as you described, but also for 1000 series GPUs Makefile.am must be altered with the correct Arch flag, 61 for the 1000 series.

I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.


Hi,

I just tried these out following your instructions and just get "illegal instruction" from the miner, any thoughts?

Thanks Smiley  

What coin are you mining, when this occurs?


I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.

The alexis78 miner appears to be OK (at least /home/m1/ASccminer/ccminer --help works), but the and tpruvot miners exit on my rig with an illegal-instruction error.  My rig runs on a Celeron G3920 (Skylake core).

(The help output worked for the alexis78 miner, but when it tried mining with it, it fell over.)

What coin are you mining?


g4560 CPU for me, "illegal instruction" on ASccminer on --benchmark too  Sad

I only tested these on a v0018 image (different from the one I compiled on) on the same computer I compiled them on.  I didn't think compiling the miner was CPU specific.
  I will test on some of my rigs that have similar CPUs to the ones you both have reported using; and recompile the clients if necessary.

Also what GPUs are you using on these rigs?


This is just when attempting to launch miner from terminal, unable to get either of them to mine or attempt to mine anything. I've since tried updating openssl and building myself but can't seem to get it to pick up the new version so still throws the build error...lacking the linux skills. Mining with Gigabyte 1070s on nvOC v18 G4560 (don't know if that's relevant)
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 26/07/2017, 17:54:48 UTC
g4560 CPU for me, "illegal instruction" on ASccminer on --benchmark too  Sad
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 26/07/2017, 16:01:23 UTC
Hello fullzero,
After a bunch of research and try, I built ccminer 2.2 successfully on nvOC 0018.

The previous build break is due to the openssl version,

Code:
m1@m1-desktop:~$ openssl version
OpenSSL 1.1.1-dev  xx XXX xxxx

You used a dev build of openssl in nvOC, ccminer doesn't support it. I download source code of openssl v1.0.2l from openssl.org, build the code, create a few soft links to replace the v1.1.1, it finally works. Not sure if this change breaks other things.

I also built alexis78 fork, https://github.com/alexis78/ccminer, it requires one more step, replace cuda-7.5 to cuda-8.0 in configure.sh.

I'm looking forward these miners in nvOC 0019.

Using linux requires some technical backgrounds, fortunately I was a windows developer Grin


Thanks car1999;

this was helpful.

the problem with tp2.2 on nvOC was a file in the openssl: bn.h.  I swapped it with the version it was looking for and this resolved all the related errors.

Also the cuda version does need to be changed in configure.sh as you described, but also for 1000 series GPUs Makefile.am must be altered with the correct Arch flag, 61 for the 1000 series.

I compiled both alexis78 and Tpuvot 2.2 ccminer clients and added at download link to them on the OP.  I will include them in v0019 of course.


Hi,

I just tried these out following your instructions and just get "illegal instruction" from the miner, any thoughts?

Thanks Smiley  
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0018
by
WarwickNZ
on 22/07/2017, 17:31:51 UTC
Would it be possible/easy to please add/explain how I can add a Genoil switch for EXP? It seems to default to claymore...

Thanks!
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining v0017
by
WarwickNZ
on 13/07/2017, 10:05:09 UTC
Hey Everyone,

Just wondering what additional switches if any you use with the Genoil miner for the most consistent share count? So far for me I've only added "--farm-recheck 10000" since switching back from Claymore as I don't think it needs to check as frequently because It's pushed from the pool if i'm thinking correctly, seems a bit more stable.

Thanks as always, awesome project.
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 29/06/2017, 00:31:19 UTC
Hi,

Great work on the new release Smiley

Couple of things...just testing on a small 3 card EVGA SC 1070 rig with a Z270-AR, getting great results with genoil on ETH, solid 95.94 MH/s @ 102W -200 core +1400 mem, 12 hours so far see how it goes.

Had an issue where it clearly didn't like the IPName config as it wouldn't connect to stratum till I changed it to another worker name on ethermine.

Request
Would it be possible to preconfigure team viewer for LAN only unattended access? This for me at least would make deployments much easier as the configuration of teamviewer is the only step where I am required to manually attach a screen. It would brilliant if I could do all configuration before hand then go drop it on a rack and connect remotely. It could then be as simple as setting DHCP reservations and upon identifying an issue on the mining pool, punch in the worker name on teamviewer (IP address) and away you go.

Request
Any scope to add a proxy to the image with a switch in onebash? I don't have much experience on the best one to choose but to me it just makes sense to try and build networks this way.  

If the release cycles continue to be short i'm not going to be able to keep up by lugging a screen to all the rigs, if you have an alternate solution you might be able to recommend instead of Request 1 that would be great too Smiley

Many thanks for the hard work as always.  
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 25/06/2017, 13:07:54 UTC
Hey,

Just wondering how many CPU threads you guys are using to mine monero without causing impact to GPU mining operations? Currently have mine set at 2 but was thinking it can probably do 3 using G4560.

Thanks

It depends on what Client you are using to GPU mine.  EWBF is very light on the CPU so you could probably do 3 threads without noticing a difference in the GPU hashrate. 

If you are using Claymore to mine a Ethash COIN; I wouldn't use more than 2: if dual mining with Claymore I wouldn't use more than 1. 

With a weaker CPU I wouldn't cpu mine at all while dual mining with Claymore.

OK thanks for the advice, i'll apply as necessary.

One more thing, is it just me or do the 1070s refuse to draw more than 150W power even when the power limit is increased? Obviously it works upping the powerlimit in windows but it doesnt seem to work for me in linux, only on the reduction.

Cheers
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 24/06/2017, 22:18:56 UTC
Hey,

Just wondering how many CPU threads you guys are using to mine monero without causing impact to GPU mining operations? Currently have mine set at 2 but was thinking it can probably do 3 using G4560.

Thanks
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 20/06/2017, 21:27:50 UTC
Hi,

I've just tried switching some of my rigs to solely mine SIA to start building a position, but it doesn't seem to work? Switched back to dual for now, any ideas?

Mining to nanopool, no settings changed other than the coin selection, works fine on the claymore dual.

Thanks.

When mining sia; ccminer is looking for a getwork protocol.  You should have to use nanopools getwork port in order to mine SIA solo with it.

Thanks for the pointer that must be it, i'll test it tonight.

Cheers

Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 20/06/2017, 01:23:08 UTC
Hi,

I've just tried switching some of my rigs to solely mine SIA to start building a position, but it doesn't seem to work? Switched back to dual for now, any ideas?

Mining to nanopool, no settings changed other than the coin selection, works fine on the claymore dual.

Thanks.
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 19/06/2017, 23:22:26 UTC
Anyone have any suggestions to this problem, I am all ears.

I have one of my rigs which uses a Asus Prim z270-a when I put the 6th GPU in it will not POST to the bios screen therefore not start up.

From troubleshooting it only happens if I have 2 GPUs plugged into the X16 slots, if I only have one it works fine.

I have changed the BIOS to the recommend from the thread here for the z270-a and set it all to GEN2.

Any other suggestions?

There were 4 Gen2 settings I needed to change, did you change them all? Could be an issue running 2 on the board with 7 or more, i've only tested with 1 on the board +6 risers or all risers. Check for faulty riser cables too, that slowed up a friend of mine getting 7 going on this board.
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 18/06/2017, 10:39:13 UTC
Hey,

Having all sorts of problems getting 6 cards running on Z270-AR, just get "internal driver error" in the one bash output then it spits a load of too many arguments statements.

I've re-imaged fresh and confirmed the MD5.

I've done the standard from BIOS including the latest flash, 4g decoding, non ptp aware and clear boot keys, no joy Sad is there a different image for this one based on the Z270-A or are we all standard now?

Any ideas?

Thanks again great work love the project.

Are you connecting the monitor to the motherboard?

If you are change it to the primary GPU (the first 16x pcie slot closest to the CPU)

and follow the process on this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1854250.msg19449945#msg19449945

Thanks for the reply, finally sorted this after many tests, lane speed needed to be adjusted to PCIe 2.0 to get this to run 7 cards at proper hash. See how i go when the m2 adapters arrive, up to 10 rigs now Smiley
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 17/06/2017, 00:27:04 UTC
Hey,

Having all sorts of problems getting 6 cards running on Z270-AR, just get "internal driver error" in the one bash output then it spits a load of too many arguments statements.

I've re-imaged fresh and confirmed the MD5.

I've done the standard from BIOS including the latest flash, 4g decoding, non ptp aware and clear boot keys, no joy Sad is there a different image for this one based on the Z270-A or are we all standard now?

Any ideas?

Thanks again great work love the project.
Post
Topic
Board Mining (Altcoins)
Re: [OS] nvOC easy-to-use Linux Nvidia Mining
by
WarwickNZ
on 11/06/2017, 14:42:06 UTC
Hi,

Firstly I'd just like to say, great job I really appreciate the time you put into this and thanks for sharing.

I'm having an issue where I can't get the cards to overclock, smi reports that the powerlimit is set as wanted at 165 through OneBash but the draw wattage just doesn't move just stays stuck around 150w. Clock and memory is set as per your guidance +100 core, +600 mem.

Board is ASUS H270 Prime Plus with 6 x EVGA GTX1070 SC, dual mining ETH+SC

Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated, loving the plug and play aspect of it, will really help with getting some friends going.

Thanks!

Sometimes, especially with initial boot; a powerlimit will not set as intended.  This may be due to using a slow usb, dos2unix taking longer than expected to close, or Ubuntu installing security updates.  It is also possible to set a powerlimit that is outside of the cards acceptable range for a powerlimit; in which case it will not implement any powerlimit dispite displaying the command.

To manually implement a powerlimit:

Press f12 to open the guake terminal; if cpuminer is running open another tab or press ctrl + c to stop the process and enter:

sudo nvidia-smi -pl 165

you will then be prompted for the password: miner1

this should attempt to implement the command for each card.  You will see a message for each card listing its previous powerlimit and its new one.  If you have selected a powerlimit that is outside of the acceptable range smi will indicate this.

Generally if you are having trouble with oneBash implementing a powerlimit: I recommend changing:

INDIVIDUAL_POWERLIMIT="YES"

in addition to:

POWERLIMIT="YES"

and then ensuring you enter the desired wattage for the global powerlimit and each of your cards individual powerlimits.

Even with a slow usb this should ensure the proper setting of a powerlimit.




Thanks. I sorted the issue just need to be a bit more aggressive with the memory overclock, stable on all rigs @ 1100 and some rigs at 1200. Interestingly the power levels still aren't moving, staying at stock for Dual Mining ETH+SIA, power limit does appear to have applied itself though.

Any scope of updating the image to Claymore 9.5? Just out of interest, how many rigs are you operating?

Again, great project, be happy to help if I can at all.