If you sold a script and get to know about a serious issue in it, what are you going to do ?

Wealthy Dice now shows that you can chose the seed for the full range, but you CAN NOT.

It still allows only for the half range ...

You might have missed the part that I didnt want to talk to their dev or anybody of them. My intention was to get it fixed in first place, otherwhise I would have asked wealthy as well for a bounty no ? And maybe would have used a new bctaccount, wouldnd have posted the log like u noticed sherlock, etc...

But ofc youre free to believe whatever you want. Or maybe its the coins you get paid for listing the gambling sites on your page, that makes you see things different idk...
Anyways the point is the same ... and Nico explained it pretty good.

When I asked you for exactly that case, your answer was:

Sorry to say so, that is a bunch of crap. A coding language is a coding language, they all do the same thing.

Besides that, you didnt even know how the provably fair system of moneypot works. When I explained it to you, you didnt want to believe it either until you saw I was right.
Looks a bit like you dont know what you're actually doing...

I was kinda waiting for this. Actually I'm asking myself about why I am wasting time on this.
Since the point of noticing about the issue, I was wondering what to do with. I mentioned the issue in a chatroom, but either people thought I would have lost there and just cant handle the loss or they just didnt understand what I am talking about.

While I was pretty sure about it, I thought it would be better to ask somebody who has more experience with this. Maybe I really would have overseen something.
I hope it's ok to mention him but I dont see why it wouldnd. So I wrote a mail to dooglus regarding this issue, just to not do anything without being 100 % sure about it being an issue or not.
After I got confirmed about my opinion for it being not fair, I again asked me what to do.

So I came to the point, to contact the owners of BetterBets and Wealthy Dice per private message on BCT.
Told them shortly that theres an issue with the seedlimitation and asking them to change it. A few minutes later I thought it wasnt clear enough explained so I wrote a second message to both of them.

Here are my outgoing PM's to the owners of both sites:



So I was expecting them to fix the issue in first place, leaving me the option to report it or not. I have had no problems with both apps so I had no intention to damage their image or anything.
I still wasnt sure if I will post about the issue at all or just leave it as it is after being fixed. The thing is that BetterBets.io is there for 1 year or something, and nobody ever seemd to have noticed it.

They are the biggest app on moneypot with a wager of over 35k bitcoins, alone since the ownerchange of Moneypot.
This are their stats:

Bets   151,692,636
Wagered   35,031,617,084.98 bits
Bets Profit   480,245,287.65 bits (1.37%)
Expected Profit   348,492,607.60 bits (0.99%)

So people obviously lost 480 bitcoins there + what was lost under the old owner.

I got answerd pretty quick from both sites. Here are their answers:



Actually I was still waiting for a further message from Wealthy Dice about the issue being resolved, thats why I didnt mention them yet. But when looking at it a second time, it seems they both have the same dev.
I didnt notice that yesterday, otherwhise I would have mentioned wealthy dice as well.

Wealthy Dice is a pretty new Moneypot app, so I wanted to wait at least until its fixed in case I report it. I thought that would be fair in case they just bought the script without noticing about the issue.

So I added the BetterBets-dev on skype, wondering why he would want to speak with me. I said all I wanted and just wanted it to be fixed.
But of course gamblingsites often getting attacked by people after losing some coins there. After a couple minutes he confirmed my request to add him to my skype list like I was asked to do so.

Here's the whole conversation:

A warm welcome ... (besides the fact, I clearly did NOT ask for any kind of conversation with him ...)



Nonsene talk ... actually it looks a bit like he would have no clue what he is coding together there.





Actually until this point I was trying to relax and just end the nonsense talk as fast as possible. I did this all in a way that would probably be most preferable for a Gamblingsite, which claims to be provably fair - but simply isnt at all.
I should have just posted it straigh away at bitcointalk, so I wouldnd have to listen to that.
Getting offended while you're trying to help somebody that u dont even know, in the hope he might have just done it by an accident.



Maybe I missunderstood this, but for me it was looking like he wanted to hide something.
My english isnt the best, but "be my guest" sounded for me like he would be trying to get this into some direction.
And it wasnt me who wanted to talk, right ?





Leaves the question why I didnt release this straight away no ?

He actually said he had a bad day, and I got him in wrong moment.
Also he said "sorry" so even if he was a dick, I was going to accepted his sorry and thought I'd leave it like this.

I have nothing to hide, so this is all of the communication that happend.
You are free to believe my version or not, up to you.

At the end the point is the same, the site wasnt provably fair until yesterday.

I think there are like 1k or 2k MP apps. Even tho the most are not active, its hard for MP to check them all for such issues, and even then the code could be changed after verification.
A while ago I noticed that some simpledice app was changed to some bitcoindoublerscam. I told that to the MP owners, and they immediately deleted the app from MP.

Actually there's another app which uses the BetterBets script. They have the same issue, but considering that they are a new site and might not know about the issue I wanted to wait until its fixed before I post about it. Actually I wasnt sure yet if I will post it at all. But it seems to be fair to let the people know about this. I should probably have mentioned them as well instead of waiting.

However I'm not sure if all apps are provably fair. But the ones I was looking at, didnt have a limitation for the seeds at all. I just didnt want to advertise any sites here, because I'm just not related to and it also doesnt fit to the topic basically.

"could BB cheat their customers?"

Not without the help of Moneypot. But BB did open the Chance for MP to cheat their users. Leaving the question why u would limit the userseed at all. It wasnt a limitation by the programming language, the dev told me. (I'll come to that in a later post)

"could BB cheat their customers with MP together?"

Yes.

edit
"could MP cheat without BB's help?"

Considering they wouldnd limit the Userseed or just set a randomizer, like stated by ryan - No.

edit2
"you said this was since BB exists so it was already when RH owned MP?"

It has been allways like this since BB was opend I got told so most likely yes.

edit3
"you wrote "This allows Moneypot to chose a ServerSeed that will make the Users/Players lose."

"could they also decide that a user/player will win?"

I assume that the sense of that would be to win money from the invested funds. That is most likely possible, because they can lookup the ServerSeed and set the UserSeed so the exact outcome would be known before the roll is done.
This actually is the case for every investsite. They all know the outcomes of either all your future rolls (in case the seeds are static and used for more than just one roll) or at least for the next one in case a randomizer is used to generate a new Seed for each Roll.

Anyways you always either trust the one whos running the site or not. They always can steal your investments and nobody could ever prove it.


Btw. I've only checked your dustlottery and your implementation allows the User to chose from the full range. But also using the same seed for more than 1 roll would allow MP to cheat technically, but this would be caused by the User himself then and not by the App owner/dev.
Actually you still would need to change the seed for each roll, so I believe the best option would be to use the randomizer from ryan but leave the option for the User to change it if he wants that.

Thanks for your confirmation. I did not say they did, I just said it would be possible.

Thats exactly the randomizer I'd also recommend. It's integrated in most browsers I believe.

U understand me wrong. I said that they only allow u to change the outcome by 50 %. So whatever Serverseed they give you, you can maximal add 50 % to it.

So if they give u ServerSeed of 2,147,483,648 then your outcome can be in a range between 50 and 99.99, depenedent on the ClientSeed you pick. But with this given ServerSeed it would not be possible to have an outcome below 50.

To better understand that I recommend to just try to calculate your outcome for an example. It's really not hard to do.
Server can chose a seed between 0 and 2^32 and the client only between 0 and 2^31. The sum of both numbers devided by 2^32 will be your roll result.

You will notice that u can only change the outcome to a 50 % range between the possible 0 and 99.99.
And which range this is, get's basically defined by the ServerSeed you get provided.

I was looking at some moneypot apps to check, and noticed a major flaw in the BetterBets.io implementation of the MoneyPot Provably Fair System.

This flaw allowed Moneypot to cheat all players who played on BetterBets since the creation of the site. (approximatly 1 year I believe)

The Moneypot algorythm is this one:

(ClientSeed + ServerSeed) / 2^32 resulting in your individual roll outcomes between 0 and 99.99

2^32 = 4,294,967,296

In case the sum of ClientSeed and ServerSeed is higher than this number, the rest is taken and divided by 2^32, resulting in your roll outcome.

Most sites implement this correctly and let the user chose a number between 0 and 4,294,967,296.
But BetterBets is limiting the User to a chose a number between 0 and 2,147,483,648.

This allows Moneypot to chose a ServerSeed that will make the Users/Players lose. Because the User can only change the outcome by max 50 %. Sounds complicated, but it isn't. Heres an example:

Let's say Moneypot picks a Serverseed of 0.

Now the User picks his ClienSeed in the given Range between 0 and 2,147,483,648.

Then the roll result will be between 0 and 49.99.

With other words, if the User plays 2x on high, he will lose.
And there is no way the User can change this because BetterBets limits the ClientSeed he can chose.

Of course nobody can prove if BetterBets and Moneypot used this to make people lose and fill their own pockets.

But what we know is, that BetterBets.io has NEVER BEEN PROVABLY FAIR.


Just to mention this: That only counts for BetterBets.io, all other Moneypot Sites are provably fair because they let the User pick his Clientseed up to 4,294,967,296. At least the ones I've checked.

Regards !

Btw. no I did'nt play there and got buthurt because I lost. I've done my homeworks, this is a fact...

username: player1
addy: CKgrN2JwUr5Av4r5i1iTtdM8oS4gxjezMY

A couple weeks ago I asked mp to allow people to withdraw with higher transaction fees. (They always charged 100 bits and paid 100 bits)
It did'nt take long and they came up with an option to send with 200 bits and 300 bits.
And if you picked one they did send it with the fee you've chosen.

I don't think I need to explain the reasons for sending with higher fees...

I'm not sure when it happend but they decided to change it again, and send your transactions with calculated fees per kb, but leaving the options to send with 200 or 300 bits.
Also they send with medium priority, resulting in people waiting hours or longer for their withdrawels.

I asked a couple times to change that and got relinked to ryans post where he was approving its ok to send with calculated fee, but taking FIXED fee for withdrawels.
Actually this isnt what they do, since u can chose 300 bits...

Btw. ryan charges 300 bits and also pays 300 bits for every withdrawel from bustabit.

I'm missing the "we consider the 100 bits more as a free donation" hint.

I'm aware of the transactions with many inputs that could cost mp more, but this is not the problem of their users.
Maybe that's just my opinion but this is how you get unhappy users/customers to save a few fucking cents.

But if we calculate this for couple thousand transactions it might give a nice amount, 100 bits on top from the idiots who send with 300 bits and I'll call that low level scam.

I really liked the moneypotguys, at least the ones I know a bit, but it seems they lost interest in making this to something successfull.
All I see now is by far too long maintenances and IMO stupid changes without info onsite for what or why.
Sure it's your biz and u can do what u want, but so can I ...

Anyways bad trust for u ...

I'm fine with removing it, when u remove your low level scam...

btw. No I'm no common kid who lost 10 cents and start bitching right after, so don't even start with it (;


Example:



I'm pretty sure that yahoo and me was one of the people, that caused you to offer different fees for withdrawels and we hoped we would do something good for the players and your biz.
But I did not want to help you to stupidly scam dust from people. I dont know how else to call that...

nickname: player1
I like Crypto-Games.net because: 1. why not and 2. idk about other site where could play gridcoins for example

At what time of which timezone will they start ? Nitrogensports used to show them like 1 or 2 hours befor they start, so it would be nice if I wouldnd have to check in there hourly.

Thank you !

Any news when this will go live ?

Could u please change my status to Full Member ? Thank you in advance !

Is there any specific thread for twitter bounties and newsletter subscribers and such ?

Any Idea when craps will be ready ?

What answers for the vote are that even ? Who said the dev fund have to stay the same all the time ?

The worth needs to go up again. Currently its pretty pointless to play for at all

Ofc not but it would make sense to take a look on it and tell opinion at least. And if its some payment thingy in any way then it could hurt the image of the coin if it is fishy. No way to protect anybody but its often not hard to see if theres anything behind a project or not