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Forward from HN:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6793684
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6793684
Quote
USPTO:
Word Mark: BITCOIN
Goods and Services: IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: A-shirts; Apparel for dancers, namely, tee shirts, sweatshirts, pants, leggings, shorts and jackets; Athletic apparel, namely, shirts, pants, jackets, footwear, hats and caps, athletic uniforms; Athletic shirts; Body shirts; Button down shirts; Button-front aloha shirts; Crop pants; Denims; Dress pants; Flood pants; Gym pants; Jeggings, namely, pants that are partially jeans and partially leggings; Jogging pants; Leather pants; Lounge pants; Pants; Stretch pants; Sweat pants; Yoga pants. FIRST USE: 20130928. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20130928
Standard Characters Claimed:
Mark Drawing Code: (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number: 86097068
Filing Date: October 21, 2013
Current Basis: 1A
Original Filing Basis: 1A
Owner: (APPLICANT) Kaglew Management LLC INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11262 Ventura Blvd Studio City CALIFORNIA 91604
Type of Mark: TRADEMARK
Register: PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator: LIVE
Word Mark: BITCOIN
Goods and Services: IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: A-shirts; Apparel for dancers, namely, tee shirts, sweatshirts, pants, leggings, shorts and jackets; Athletic apparel, namely, shirts, pants, jackets, footwear, hats and caps, athletic uniforms; Athletic shirts; Body shirts; Button down shirts; Button-front aloha shirts; Crop pants; Denims; Dress pants; Flood pants; Gym pants; Jeggings, namely, pants that are partially jeans and partially leggings; Jogging pants; Leather pants; Lounge pants; Pants; Stretch pants; Sweat pants; Yoga pants. FIRST USE: 20130928. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20130928
Standard Characters Claimed:
Mark Drawing Code: (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number: 86097068
Filing Date: October 21, 2013
Current Basis: 1A
Original Filing Basis: 1A
Owner: (APPLICANT) Kaglew Management LLC INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11262 Ventura Blvd Studio City CALIFORNIA 91604
Type of Mark: TRADEMARK
Register: PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator: LIVE
Re: My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.
Nitpick: tax avoidance, not evasion. Evasion is illegal, avoidance is just (arguably) unethical.
In what way is forcefully taking money ethical?
Forcefully taking money (i.e. taxation) via an entity that can imprison and economically suppress is not only wrong but it's responsible for atrocious assaults on human rights. Involuntary funding is the greatest threat to free speech and dissent. Involuntary funding is the greatest contributing factor to increasing wars of aggression, corporatocracy, war profiteering, loss of human rights, growth of a surveillance society and unaccountable budgeting, funding of special interests, and the overall escalation of the fray of mass merchants of death and greed wearing tailored suits. These are the people who appeal to simpletons that taxation is patriotic. Patriotism is nationalism. Nationalism is ignorant and complicit to atrocity and unethical behavior. It's a tale as old as history. That's what happens when people can't abstain: centralized power turns into an oppressive, uncontrolled, unaccountable force.
On a moral basis, avoiding contributing to the funding of behavior that one morally objects to is actually an act of great ethical and civil disobedience. One's life, physical freedom, reputation, and economic mobility are all at stake with such dissent.
How is this moral objection unethical?
The answer is that it's not "unethical." Conversely, forcefully funding any entity of institutionalized oppression is unethical.
Re: Decentralised crime fighting using private set intersection protocols
SOPA didn't pass, did it?
You're quite right in that law making, democracy, the systems we have today are all flawed in many ways. But let me quote Churchill. Democracy is the worst form of government known, except for all the others.
I think most politicians will come to these debates without much of an opinion on Bitcoin. It's a new technology. It has benefits and costs, like any other. On one hand, maybe law enforcement is complaining about it. On the other hand, their constituents hate banks and are clamouring for a real alternative to the existing financial systems. So they're going to be looking for some kind of middle road that tries to make everyone happy, or at least, not too unhappy.
That's why it's worth thinking about reasonable proposals. Like I said, left to their own devices and if put under pressure lawmakers will come up with regulations that are completely un-Bitcoinish, because they will just automatically assume the state can be trusted, they'll impose lots of costly paperwork, etc. There won't be any real usage of advanced technology because they don't understand it.
A lot of law makers do understand this problem, by the way, they understand that the costs of regulations can be really high. It's quite common to see them propose that an industry self-regulates with actual, real laws only as a last resort. So if the Bitcoin world can show that it isn't just blowing off the whole issue of crime, that it's able to come up with interesting solutions to its own problems, that's a very strong argument for just leaving it alone.
You're quite right in that law making, democracy, the systems we have today are all flawed in many ways. But let me quote Churchill. Democracy is the worst form of government known, except for all the others.
I think most politicians will come to these debates without much of an opinion on Bitcoin. It's a new technology. It has benefits and costs, like any other. On one hand, maybe law enforcement is complaining about it. On the other hand, their constituents hate banks and are clamouring for a real alternative to the existing financial systems. So they're going to be looking for some kind of middle road that tries to make everyone happy, or at least, not too unhappy.
That's why it's worth thinking about reasonable proposals. Like I said, left to their own devices and if put under pressure lawmakers will come up with regulations that are completely un-Bitcoinish, because they will just automatically assume the state can be trusted, they'll impose lots of costly paperwork, etc. There won't be any real usage of advanced technology because they don't understand it.
A lot of law makers do understand this problem, by the way, they understand that the costs of regulations can be really high. It's quite common to see them propose that an industry self-regulates with actual, real laws only as a last resort. So if the Bitcoin world can show that it isn't just blowing off the whole issue of crime, that it's able to come up with interesting solutions to its own problems, that's a very strong argument for just leaving it alone.
The solution is to let them try.
...and to fight back with more instruments of decentralization, not less.
...and to most certainly not aid them.
SOPA didn't pass, did it?
I dare not even get started on this line of anecdotal reasoning (which, by the way, was temporarily halted specifically because people vocally resisted and rightfully shamed supporters). Yikes. Meanwhile, many of those same entities are determined to bring more convincing, slippery-tongued legislation that will eventually pass because the system is inherently dictatorial. Regarding the US, a small group of [535+1+etc] kings/queens -- [Congress + Executives] -- ruling over and deciding everyone's fate and abilities is by no definition a "democracy" either.
Re: Decentralised crime fighting using private set intersection protocols
Destroying (i.e. supplanting) a relatively freely-trading thing with a system that makes those things less free and depletes their intrinsic worth?
But clearly appeasing the authorities to a reasonable extent can also lead to Bitcoin being more freely traded. It's pretty hard to freely trade an outlaw currency. Let's face reality like adults.I'd have to respectfully disagree with that reasoning then. If the thought is that appeasing authorities is ever a route one should take just to make bitcoin more traded, it's usually inconsistent with bitcoin. I would rather spread solutions that are less dependent on central authorities and utilize more aspects of information transmission and helping others to make it more traded. It's easy to trade bitcoin already. It will get much easier and secure with more hardware wallets. The most adult way to face this, from my perspective, is to both preserve the intrinsic properties of bitcoin and to support a bitcoin-based economy -- away from the constraints of outside forces. Tainting and limiting at the majority level is one of the greatest threats to an independent bitcoin economy.
It would be like scientists someday discovering a technique to implant gold with molecular signatures or additives and then heads of centralized gold exchanges promoting this "feature", where people give more power to other collectives (e.g. uncontrollable states and others) through gold tainting, merely to be in "compliance," merely so that gold itself can be traded more by the masses. That's somewhat circular reasoning too. That in and of itself would decrease the intrinsic property of gold: a substance essentially not prone to tampering and duplication at its fundamental level. Smelting/mixing pools would form. Then to combat mixers a collective could declare that too much taint in the mix needs to be further regulated, limited, or seized -- effectively fully controlling [people and their trade] completely when it comes to gold. It's just an analogy and it applies to anything.
That betrays the original aspect of bitcoins. If people really cared about fighting crime, they'd stop funding the largest entities' (various governments, shall we say) actions and sub-entities that directly perpetrate mass, global violence and bankroll war contractors and the prison industrial complex via draconian lawmaking. That's why a lot of people were originally choosing to use bitcoins in the first place: to ethically object to violence and promote peaceful trade. Funding "criminals" is a matter of perception that's contingent entirely upon choice and consent. For instance, I would think most people here support ending the drug war. Thus, people who support bitcoin as a mechanism of free trade for those reasons (ending the drug war) are conscientiously acting.
Bitcoin itself must -- ironically, in a sense, to some -- remain free/fungible for any entity that wishes to use and exploit it.
Crime is an artifact of perception; democracy (otherwise known as mob rule) is too. It requires significant proof and authority to even begin to support systems of law, judging, and jury -- which are often wrong or morally wrong -- let alone to allow Bitcoin as a so-called-independent medium to become subject to every whim of authoritative entities.
That's why it's special: ...like gold. ...like the internet. ...like free speech. ...so long as it's freer.
No, sir, I don't like it.
Haha, I know where that's from 
I was hoping someone would.
OK, time to make a meme pic for good measure:
http://i.qkme.me/3tidx4.jpg
Quote
Not starting fresh at all though. Cryptocurrency would have already made a big name for itself. The UTXO set (current spendable coins) can be forked, so use is incentivized, and there's no speculative risk of being "on the wrong chain". The weaknesses and proper countermeasures would be much clearer. I'm sure there's more.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
So true! That's a very good point as it wouldn't start fresh per se. There's far more understanding now of why bitcoin is/could be so valuable. There's a great movement behind anything that would preserve it or something better. Thank you.
Re: Decentralised crime fighting using private set intersection protocols
This is one of the first posts that makes me think twice about being on the bitcoin bandwagon to the extent I've been. The thought of cashing out some bitcoins even crossed my mind. It crossed my mind. That's all I'm saying. I continue to be skeptically optimistic and mindful.
It's destructive to promote an obvious, recurring concept that makes Bitcoin (big B) far more susceptible to collectives that set restraints and often have ulterior motives that employ force. It destroys the fungibility of bitcoins. Destroying (i.e. supplanting) a relatively freely-trading thing with a system that makes those things less free and depletes their intrinsic worth?
No, sir, I don't like it.
It would mean starting fresh. People who care about bitcoin's original intrinsic value would be forced to design a system that's substantially less susceptible to the central hierarchy of a small development crew, "feature" creep, mass pooling, and provider dependency. That would not be an easy task. ...To say the least. If, however, bitcoin ever fell to that point, it would be both a shame and an honorable endeavor.
It's destructive to promote an obvious, recurring concept that makes Bitcoin (big B) far more susceptible to collectives that set restraints and often have ulterior motives that employ force. It destroys the fungibility of bitcoins. Destroying (i.e. supplanting) a relatively freely-trading thing with a system that makes those things less free and depletes their intrinsic worth?
No, sir, I don't like it.
It would mean starting fresh. People who care about bitcoin's original intrinsic value would be forced to design a system that's substantially less susceptible to the central hierarchy of a small development crew, "feature" creep, mass pooling, and provider dependency. That would not be an easy task. ...To say the least. If, however, bitcoin ever fell to that point, it would be both a shame and an honorable endeavor.
Re: Decentralised crime fighting using private set intersection protocols
A comment in the Reddit post that sums it up:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1awu5j/decentralized_crime_fighting_aka_blacklists_for/c91lonj
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1awu5j/decentralized_crime_fighting_aka_blacklists_for/c91lonj
Quote
Coinabul's Terms of Service
Conditions of Use By using the Coinabul website or any other service provided by Coinabul, you implicitly agree to the following Conditions of Use. These terms apply to all orders, purchases, and sales made through www.Coinabul.com, by telephone, or by any other means. We urge you to read and understand these Conditions of Use, as well as all policies and procedures before using any Coinabul service. It will be necessary for you to acknowledge reading, understanding, and accepting all terms of these Conditions of Use before placing any orders with, or selling to Coinabul. Payment for any item must be sent within 1 hour after purchase to ensure that your product is reserved at your spot price. We reserve the right to change this User Agreement at any time. Any changes will be posted on the Coinabul website and all changes will take effect 30 days after their posting. This User Agreement cannot be changed in any other fashion except by mutual, written agreement between Coinabul and you. This User Agreement sets forth the entire agreement between Coinabul and you in regards to the material contained within it. If you have any questions regarding this agreement, or any rights or obligations described within it, please contact Coinabul. If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion. Privacy Policy Coinabul respects your privacy. We will never willfully sell, rent or share any individual customer information with anyone. The only information we maintain is the information you provide us with to complete your Coinabul order. Coinabul uses the highest industry safety standards when storing information or completing a sale, including the highest industry standard secure server (SSL) used to transfer payment over the internet safely and securely. Coinabul employees are only granted access to your information to complete a transaction, and all strictly comply with our security policies. While Coinabul will not sell, rent or share customer information with anyone, we may share general, non-individual information, such as registration statistics with trusted third parties. We may occasionally send you emails containing special offers or information about new services and products. If you no longer wish to receive these emails, simply click UNSUBSCRIBE or send an email message to remove@Coinabul.com with "remove" in the subject line and your address will be deleted from our active mailing list. Disclaimer By using Coinabul's services, including this website, you agree to be bound by this Disclaimer. Please make sure you read and understand the policies set forth in this section. You also implicitly state that you have sufficient knowledge and experience on which to base your decisions regarding the buying and selling of precious metals, and that Coinabul makes no recommendations about those sales or purchases. You acknowledge understanding of the risks inherent in such transactions, including fluctuations in market price, and that those risks are beyond the control of Coinabul. By using our services, you acknowledge that certain market conditions or other disruptions, such as technological difficulties, may result in you being unable to buy or sell products on a timetable or at a price that is acceptable to you. If you fail to abide by the terms described within the Conditions of Use, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account at any time. You agree not to hold Coinabul liable or responsible for any orders placed via its online order system, disruptions, or termination of that system, or for any losses, or damages you may incur as a result of using the order entry system. Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders. Nor can Coinabul be held responsible for delays in transmission, delivery, or fulfillment of orders due to the failure of associated facilities or to any other causes beyond its control. By using any Coinabul service, you agree that you understand the order entry system is mechanical and may fail due to conditions beyond our control. Cookies are data files which store information concerning the websites you have visited. Data contained in those files is data you yourself have entered, such as user IDs and passwords. Cookies cannot search out data on your hard drives or data files created by other websites. No payment information is stored within the cookies used by Coinabul. Coinabul uses tracking cookies to enable you to easily retrieve fresh quotes or place additional orders without having to re-enter your name and shipping data. If your browser is currently blocking cookies, you may have trouble logging in or the system may not be able to find your username or password. Please enable cookies, and temporarily unblock JavaScript in your browser's settings for the smoothest possible experience on www.Coinabul.com. User Agreement By making purchases, selling, or placing orders with Coinabul, you are agreeing to abide by our Conditions of Use. All investment includes an element of risk. The value of bullion coin is constantly affected by a variety of factors including market price, the perceived value of such coins in relation to their availability, as well as other innumerable factors. Because of the natural fluctuations in price, investing in bullion and coins may not be suitable for everyone. It is in your best interest to learn as much as you can, fully understand the market, and ensure you have sufficient financial reserves before considering any investment. All policies are subject to change at any time and all such changes will be effective immediately upon posting to the Coinabul website. Indemnification By using Coinabuls services, you agree that neither the company, nor its affiliates, officers, directors or shareholders can be held liable for any costs, damages, expenses, liabilities or obligations you incur as a result of your breach of agreement with Coinabul, or your failure to adhere to the Conditions of Use. Limitation of Liability By using our services, you agree that Coinabul cannot be held liable for any consequential, exemplary, or indirect losses or damages you may incur from a transaction with us. If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater. Termination Either you or Coinabul may terminate this User Agreement at any time with written notice to the other party. Termination will not affect the rules and rights available to you or Coinabul in regard to use and transactions which occurred before the termination. Rights and Remedies Coinabul reserves the right to exercise any and all rights available to us by law in the event of your failure to comply with any obligations you owe us. This includes, but is not limited to, using any of your funds being held by Coinabul to satisfy your financial obligations to us. We may also offset any financial obligation we owe to you, against your outstanding obligations. We reserve the right to turn your account over to a collections agency or lawyer for collection if necessary. In that event, you are responsible for paying all costs associated with the collection, including, but not limited to attorneys fees and court costs. No delay or failure to act on our part can be construed as a waiver of any right or remedy. Also, no action upon any right or remedy will limit further exercise of that right or remedy. By using any Coinabul service you agree to allow us to charge the credit card you have provided for any market losses incurred by Coinabul as a result of your failure to fulfill any obligation. Absence of Relationship Upon using any Coinabul service, the only relationship created is that of a buyer and a seller. No other legal relationship exists or is implied. Our written consent is required before you may transfer or assign these Conditions of Use, any rights it grants you, or any obligations to another party. This User Agreement will be considered binding on any allowed transfer or assignment and any successors of Coinabul. Dispute Resolution It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE. Liability Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events. Further Assurances By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required. Notices All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration. Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure. Severability If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.
Conditions of Use By using the Coinabul website or any other service provided by Coinabul, you implicitly agree to the following Conditions of Use. These terms apply to all orders, purchases, and sales made through www.Coinabul.com, by telephone, or by any other means. We urge you to read and understand these Conditions of Use, as well as all policies and procedures before using any Coinabul service. It will be necessary for you to acknowledge reading, understanding, and accepting all terms of these Conditions of Use before placing any orders with, or selling to Coinabul. Payment for any item must be sent within 1 hour after purchase to ensure that your product is reserved at your spot price. We reserve the right to change this User Agreement at any time. Any changes will be posted on the Coinabul website and all changes will take effect 30 days after their posting. This User Agreement cannot be changed in any other fashion except by mutual, written agreement between Coinabul and you. This User Agreement sets forth the entire agreement between Coinabul and you in regards to the material contained within it. If you have any questions regarding this agreement, or any rights or obligations described within it, please contact Coinabul. If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion. Privacy Policy Coinabul respects your privacy. We will never willfully sell, rent or share any individual customer information with anyone. The only information we maintain is the information you provide us with to complete your Coinabul order. Coinabul uses the highest industry safety standards when storing information or completing a sale, including the highest industry standard secure server (SSL) used to transfer payment over the internet safely and securely. Coinabul employees are only granted access to your information to complete a transaction, and all strictly comply with our security policies. While Coinabul will not sell, rent or share customer information with anyone, we may share general, non-individual information, such as registration statistics with trusted third parties. We may occasionally send you emails containing special offers or information about new services and products. If you no longer wish to receive these emails, simply click UNSUBSCRIBE or send an email message to remove@Coinabul.com with "remove" in the subject line and your address will be deleted from our active mailing list. Disclaimer By using Coinabul's services, including this website, you agree to be bound by this Disclaimer. Please make sure you read and understand the policies set forth in this section. You also implicitly state that you have sufficient knowledge and experience on which to base your decisions regarding the buying and selling of precious metals, and that Coinabul makes no recommendations about those sales or purchases. You acknowledge understanding of the risks inherent in such transactions, including fluctuations in market price, and that those risks are beyond the control of Coinabul. By using our services, you acknowledge that certain market conditions or other disruptions, such as technological difficulties, may result in you being unable to buy or sell products on a timetable or at a price that is acceptable to you. If you fail to abide by the terms described within the Conditions of Use, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your account at any time. You agree not to hold Coinabul liable or responsible for any orders placed via its online order system, disruptions, or termination of that system, or for any losses, or damages you may incur as a result of using the order entry system. Coinabul is not liable for any errors, negligence, or inability to fulfill any orders. Nor can Coinabul be held responsible for delays in transmission, delivery, or fulfillment of orders due to the failure of associated facilities or to any other causes beyond its control. By using any Coinabul service, you agree that you understand the order entry system is mechanical and may fail due to conditions beyond our control. Cookies are data files which store information concerning the websites you have visited. Data contained in those files is data you yourself have entered, such as user IDs and passwords. Cookies cannot search out data on your hard drives or data files created by other websites. No payment information is stored within the cookies used by Coinabul. Coinabul uses tracking cookies to enable you to easily retrieve fresh quotes or place additional orders without having to re-enter your name and shipping data. If your browser is currently blocking cookies, you may have trouble logging in or the system may not be able to find your username or password. Please enable cookies, and temporarily unblock JavaScript in your browser's settings for the smoothest possible experience on www.Coinabul.com. User Agreement By making purchases, selling, or placing orders with Coinabul, you are agreeing to abide by our Conditions of Use. All investment includes an element of risk. The value of bullion coin is constantly affected by a variety of factors including market price, the perceived value of such coins in relation to their availability, as well as other innumerable factors. Because of the natural fluctuations in price, investing in bullion and coins may not be suitable for everyone. It is in your best interest to learn as much as you can, fully understand the market, and ensure you have sufficient financial reserves before considering any investment. All policies are subject to change at any time and all such changes will be effective immediately upon posting to the Coinabul website. Indemnification By using Coinabuls services, you agree that neither the company, nor its affiliates, officers, directors or shareholders can be held liable for any costs, damages, expenses, liabilities or obligations you incur as a result of your breach of agreement with Coinabul, or your failure to adhere to the Conditions of Use. Limitation of Liability By using our services, you agree that Coinabul cannot be held liable for any consequential, exemplary, or indirect losses or damages you may incur from a transaction with us. If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater. Termination Either you or Coinabul may terminate this User Agreement at any time with written notice to the other party. Termination will not affect the rules and rights available to you or Coinabul in regard to use and transactions which occurred before the termination. Rights and Remedies Coinabul reserves the right to exercise any and all rights available to us by law in the event of your failure to comply with any obligations you owe us. This includes, but is not limited to, using any of your funds being held by Coinabul to satisfy your financial obligations to us. We may also offset any financial obligation we owe to you, against your outstanding obligations. We reserve the right to turn your account over to a collections agency or lawyer for collection if necessary. In that event, you are responsible for paying all costs associated with the collection, including, but not limited to attorneys fees and court costs. No delay or failure to act on our part can be construed as a waiver of any right or remedy. Also, no action upon any right or remedy will limit further exercise of that right or remedy. By using any Coinabul service you agree to allow us to charge the credit card you have provided for any market losses incurred by Coinabul as a result of your failure to fulfill any obligation. Absence of Relationship Upon using any Coinabul service, the only relationship created is that of a buyer and a seller. No other legal relationship exists or is implied. Our written consent is required before you may transfer or assign these Conditions of Use, any rights it grants you, or any obligations to another party. This User Agreement will be considered binding on any allowed transfer or assignment and any successors of Coinabul. Dispute Resolution It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE. Liability Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events. Further Assurances By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required. Notices All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration. Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure. Severability If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.
I read Coinabul's Blob of Service. Here are the two applicable points:
Quote
If an order cannot be filled by Coinabul we will either: provide a substitute product of your choice of equivalent value, or provide a refund, minus any market loss incurred and at our discretion.
There's been no substitute. Refunding minus "market losses" is ambiguous at best. The buyer can't expect "market losses" to apply if there is no product being delivered to begin with.
Quote
If Coinabul is held liable to you for a transaction, liability will be limited to either the amount which you paid during the transaction or $100; whichever is greater.
US court or no US court, if one obviously considers Coinabul liable for this transaction, this means that Coinabul owes him the amount of BTC he paid: 90.78 BTC. NOTE TO BITCOIN MIDDLEMEN: Do not spend a customer's money before it's actually your money. It isn't your money until a sale is completed. As far as gold, one must either stock gold as inventory and create an obvious buffer to protect a customer's funds or one must get out of this crooked game. Anything else is disreputable by any measure.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Coinabul's policy states that their refunds will be in USD equivalent, not BTC.
Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make. But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.
Now, if you want to argue the potential for gain on other investments in the timeframe that Coinabul held on to his money (i.e., interest), I think that is a fair argument to make. But it would be up to a court of law to determine specific damages, and it most assuredly would not follow the BTC price.
I'm shocked that some people don't see the theft transpiring. You speak of bitcoin as if it holds no value as a commodity and currency independent of USD. I never would've thought there'd even be a handful of people arguing on behalf of USD let alone a "court of law's" undoubtedly-twisted interpretation of bitcoin. According to those insinuations, then if the USD value of bitcoins dropped to $1, Coinabul would still owe them the spot price of gold?
No. They would owe them the 90.78 BTC still. If Coinabul's "terms" are to rip people off then those are crooked terms. Right. Let's start an international store, take bitcoins, give nothing, watch the bitcoin value go up, then decide to hold on to part of the coins. Nice 'operation' there.
That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss
We both know that Coinabul made a bogus argument when it said it sold the BTC and hence couldn't return it, so I don't know why you are explaining this to me. You have not explained why my method is not "kindly", you have only explained what a business should do if your refund method is used. I don't care one bit how the business handles the money internally.
I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product.
OK, I'll explain it this way. You say the risk is with the seller, and you say the buyer should get the refund in the original amount of BTC. So, if the bitcoin crashes and the seller (whoops) can't ship the product, then it can, without any foul, refund the original amount of Bitcoins. But there is no risk to the seller. This is a contradiction. Hence one of your two premises are incorrect. Because the seller normally has the choice of refunding or shipping the product, the seller has no risk. The seller may do whichever gives the most profit.
If however, the value must be refunded then the seller has all the risk, because no matter what, the seller must give to the buyer the value of the good. If Bitcoin crashes then it is the sellers tough luck. If Bitcoin rises then it is the sellers good luck. There is no risk to the buyer.
Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures.
This is what is being argued. You can't just state this in bold as if it is you argument. (which I really think it is your argument)
and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment.
I don't understand this. Because, the value of Bitcoin increased during this transaction, the seller will make off with the profit anyway.
On a side note: Conabul refunding $1600 for $1900, equivalent, is very rotten. Very, very.
He paid paid 90+ BTC yet the product never shipped. You still don't understand this.
Stop tying BTC to USD. You want to tie it to USD now? 90.78 BTC x ~47 USD = $4267
That's the buyer's money (not the seller's money) currently valued in USD. Coinabul is sitting on that. When they couldn't provide the product, they should've refunded his 90.78 BTC with lightning-fucking-speed. Coinabul spent, took, or squandered his bitcoins? That's their responsibility.
WTF? Scenario:
The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?
- Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
- BTC's worth doubles in USD.
- You don't send what Buyer ordered.
- Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
- You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?
The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?
Suppose, the Gold coin was sent. The buyer still gets screwed (because his good is only worth 50 when he paid 100) by that logic.
In your way, the buyer takes the risk and the seller may manipulate the refund for their own profit. If the value rises then give the goods. If the value falls then "oops, we were actually out of stock" and give a refund. (I know it didn't happen in this case, but I have no doubt that it has happened)
In my way the seller takes the risk and buyer doesn't' care if the refund happens. Independent of the value of Bitcoins and whether the refund occurs, the Buyer still has the same buying power and may buy the same product elsewhere. Independent of a corrupt seller, the buyer can end up with what they wanted by loosing no extra money!
(And people think about the value of their Bitcoins anytime they make a purchase, not the number. If that wasn't the case then no one would have bought a pizza for 10,000.)
I actually can't see how your method is fair and mine is unfair. I would say that refunding only 100 if the value dropped was unfair. I would certainly feel cheated and suspect foul play.
I mean no offense but I'm having a hard time following your points. You might be completely misrepresenting what I said and the situation at hand, but it's hard to decipher your conclusions. The risk is always with the Seller if he or she doesn't provide the product. That's how almost all respectable and honest businesses operate, naturally.
You're posing a new hypothetical where the gold is sent? If the gold is sent and it's legit (i.e. the correct amount of gold is sent) then matters of returns and refunding depend on the time frame of a Seller's policies and guarantees. Assuming the transaction was honest and delivered, the Buyer could not later seek a full refund in BTC (such as if BTC is relatively worth more). The discretion of the Seller's policies come into play on how to reimburse. However, let's say the gold was sent but it was a fake or half the gold or some such. Then the buyer would still be entitled to a full refund in the original BTC amount. None of this is the actual situation that took place, though.
That's why smart retailers don't write checks their asses can't cash. They don't spend a customer's money until a safe time period has passed, as to ensure against loss -- especially when dealing with the risk of fluctuating markets. Many retailers in USD, for instance, generally never treat sales as usable revenue until at least 30-90 days have passed. That ensures against the risk of chargebacks, ACH reversals, returns, and failures -- like the failure to deliver. Sellers handling BTC bear the responsibility for keeping that BTC on hand in the event of such failures. It's not the Buyer's burden. Even more offensive is the notion that a business would spend someone else's BTC when they can't and won't deliver, and then try to delay matters and make off with all or part of that person's BTC payment. Can't pay what's due? Can't handle the risks? Can't resolve matters kindly and promptly? I know what I call a service that does that. Maybe they started out with better intentions but it doesn't negate current behavior.
I agree that it's a borderline issue. However, seeing that in .de the customer has explicitly NO right to ask for a refund or return when buying PMs (because the items are subject to exchange rate fluctuation), I would further argue that here the same is the case.
So either see that the guy gets the Rand or refund the VALUE of the rand.
Turn it around - you actually deliver, the price falls, you will NOT get 1605USD for your coin, but only 1500USD.
I agree that the circumstances are different, but the principle applied is the same.
Disclaimer: IMHO, since IANAL.
So either see that the guy gets the Rand or refund the VALUE of the rand.
Turn it around - you actually deliver, the price falls, you will NOT get 1605USD for your coin, but only 1500USD.
I agree that the circumstances are different, but the principle applied is the same.
Disclaimer: IMHO, since IANAL.
It's not a borderline issue.
It's a very simple issue. Refunding the "value" of something in different (and lesser) denomination than you gave is completely crooked. We're not talking about returns. We're talking about refunding the failed purchase of an item that never shipped. I don't understand why this is so hard to appreciate and comprehend. This is basic business and accounting 101.
I think the value is what needs to be refunded. That is about 40BTC right now. That way, no one is really at a loss. Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent. But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency. Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere. This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).
WTF? Scenario:
- Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
- BTC's worth doubles in USD.
- You don't send what Buyer ordered.
- Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
- You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?
The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?
time for me to change my ToS, then ^^
I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.
I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.
Think this sentence makes it clear?
If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.
Longer version:
In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.
Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?
What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?
As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.
It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.
by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"
not.
No. Read this person's issue again. He didn't receive a product. The product wasn't even sent.
He can't come back weeks later and expect a refund in anything other than the original amount of BTC he paid. Likewise, he can't expect more than the original amount of metal he purchased, as you highlight. The comparative rate of BTC is meaningless. If Coinabul can't provide the product in a timely manner, then they can't. That means the refund is in BTC. It doesn't matter if BTC crashes to $1 USD: 1 BTC either. Refunding in a different BTC amount is inexcusable. Doing otherwise is laughably unfair. I'm surprised by anyone who doesn't realize that.
As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.
It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.
As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.
Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.
He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).
That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.
Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.
He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).
That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.
No, that isn't valid. People transact in bitcoin for a reason: to not transact in USD. Bitcoin is its own denomination. It stands completely independent of USD. Any other practice allows the seller to take a buyer's money if the relative value of their bitcoins increases. Likewise, no matter how low the bitcoin value goes down, the refund would still be in BTC. The thought of spending other people's money and hedging on customers is offensive and crooked.
We're not talking about a person who's unhappy with a product they received. We're talking about a person who was never sent the product.
Don't argue with them over market prices. This is a very simple matter. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- You gave them 90+ BTC for a product.
- They didn't have the product and/or were unable to send it.
- They kept your 90+ BTC.
You are not responsible if they sell your BTC in the meanwhile. They are. No legit business would spend someone's funds before the delivery is fully completed, let alone spend it without even sending the product! Accepting anything less than a full 90+ BTC refund is unacceptable. Also, it's entirely disrespectful of them if they're trying to weasel you around to get free bitcoins from you.
If you paid in BTC and didn't get the product -- apparently, in this case, it wasn't even shipped -- then you must be refunded fully in BTC.
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. It's un-fucking-believable. Market changes in BTC are completely irrelevant, unless the 'service' is attempting to con people out of their bitcoins when the market goes up. Yaaaay, free bitcoins for doing nothing! Ridiculous.
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. It's un-fucking-believable. Market changes in BTC are completely irrelevant, unless the 'service' is attempting to con people out of their bitcoins when the market goes up. Yaaaay, free bitcoins for doing nothing! Ridiculous.
The evidence is clear in the context of basic business and ethics. Coinabul's service did not deliver a purchased product to the Buyer. Coinabul's insurance did not cover their ass from a loss. Both are entirely outside the scope of responsibility of the Buyer.
Scam?
Yes. It's illogical to say that scams require premeditated behavior. Scamming needs behavior that determinedly affects the outcome. Aside from an astounding delay of months, intentionally not giving full and due recourse is scamming.
Good businesses deliver. When problems arise, good businesses are eager to fairly settle problems. That usually means full recourse -- and often more for the inconvenience. What often separates good businesses from unreliable/scammy business is empathy. I digress. Reputation seems irrevocably lost for the foreseeable future. Relying on future delivery from a site that puts up a fight when they're clearly wrong is for future scam victims. If a site can't handle the weight, it needs to explicitly change and disclose new policies going forward. Anything less is inherently a scam.
WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?
So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
Scam?
Yes. It's illogical to say that scams require premeditated behavior. Scamming needs behavior that determinedly affects the outcome. Aside from an astounding delay of months, intentionally not giving full and due recourse is scamming.
Good businesses deliver. When problems arise, good businesses are eager to fairly settle problems. That usually means full recourse -- and often more for the inconvenience. What often separates good businesses from unreliable/scammy business is empathy. I digress. Reputation seems irrevocably lost for the foreseeable future. Relying on future delivery from a site that puts up a fight when they're clearly wrong is for future scam victims. If a site can't handle the weight, it needs to explicitly change and disclose new policies going forward. Anything less is inherently a scam.
WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?
Quote
bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago
I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.
This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul
I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.
This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul
So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
Re: BTC @ 47.61 = 1B$ ? Should bitcoin market cap include the bitcoins to be mined ?
No, it shouldn't, as that's not what the term "market capitalisation" means. Market capitalisation only ever includes shares that are actually held by shareholders, not treasury shares or unissued shares. It's an important distinction because every single satoshi that has ever been mined can be linked to the address of whoever currently holds it, just as every share of a company is owned by a particular shareholder, and you can point to that person and say "this person has this many bitcoins and they're worth this much". And you can add up all these people to get the total wealth that people are actually holding in bitcoins. That's what market capitalisation means.
Unmined bitcoins do not form part of the wealth held by any individual, and therefore are completely worthless. As far as the economy is concerned, it's as if they don't even exist. The fact that they will exist sometime in the future doesn't change the fact that they don't exist now, and therefore shouldn't be counted.
Unmined bitcoins do not form part of the wealth held by any individual, and therefore are completely worthless. As far as the economy is concerned, it's as if they don't even exist. The fact that they will exist sometime in the future doesn't change the fact that they don't exist now, and therefore shouldn't be counted.
Bitcoin is not a corporation. It doesn't have separate share classes. Nor is it gold. Bitcoin is bitcoin. The 'true' market cap must account for its set dilution, considering how quickly most of the coins will come into being. If we use the corporation analogy, then no (logical) investor would factor the number of shares myopically at 11 million to understand the market's value of one's shares or of the company. If mining was slower and linear over the course of many centuries, there'd be better reasoning for tying the real-world market capitalization to a current and contained window of time that still estimates dilution, similar to precious metal pricing. But it isn't. Bitcoin is bitcoin.
If one is looking to get in and out quickly, sure, it's less important. However, for real long-term value storage, it's important to think of the cap conservatively (with dilution). Ultimately, it's not a huge issue either way. Bitcoin is in its infancy of potential. Bottoming or relative stability is nowhere in sight.