Do you guys have an in-wallet GUI for all this budget and voting stuff yet?

Thats a good point Minotaur, but I'm trying to make the case for a more generalised financial model for Dash. What you've identified in your post is a market for risk assets, thats all. But there are loads of markets for risk assets, not all of them crypto currencies. Dash is not unique in supplying volatility to a financial trading market.

Here's the thing: Bitcoin has plenty of backing now, but it has kind of lost the plot as a monetary unit. Satoshi created a very well defined monetary unit of exchange. Then he disappeared and left Gavin to manage the code. Then Gavin gave GitHub access to a bunch of guys that he thought were clever programmers. Then they got bought up by some venture capitalists.

Now bitcoin is a rudderless ship because it's being directed by people who cannot escape from their "fiat" way of seeing things. In particular, Greg Maxwell who is at once a very clever programmer and at the same time absolutely void of imagination as to how a new monetary system could work. (IMO that's because he doesn't fully understand how the old one worked). The reason I name him in particular is because he's symbolic of the legacy model to the point that he's obsessed with coding it into re-incarnation in the crypto currency domain with its multiple, corporately managed girdles.

Expecting someone like Greg Maxwell to adequately implement digitally money is kind of like asking Mozart to write Jumping Jack Flash and for it to sound good.
Ain't gonna happen.

Witness sidechains - a monetary clown to bitcoin’s lion.

Returning to my previous post and to your reply, I think that Dash needs to start thinking about supporting the two distinct demands for monetary media:

[1] - risk assets
[2] - stable currencies

The history of money is characterised by these two demands playing off against each other because there is always a balance of demand for both. Risk assets are demanded by the type of market you highlighted in your post.

But there is a huge market who do not make their money from investing in currency. They make it from manufacturing products. Those users of currency require the exact opposite from risk asset investors - they require that their manufacturing estimates come in on budget months or years from when the planning was done. You can't do that with a risk asset, you need a derivative.

Those markets are huge. Potentially far bigger that simple forex investment because most people who use money are using it to but something, not to hold and hope that it accrues in value. Therefore, Dash needs to work for them as well and start thinking about a derivative product which will do the exact opposite of what Dash does on the exchanges. i.e, when Dash tanks the derivative accrues value. When Dash surges the derivative declines.

At the very least I think we need to develop a consciousness around the distinction between risk assets and currency (or “money and currency” as Mike Maloney calls it). Doing that will keep Dash at the bleeding edge, not just in technological terms but in monetary terms as well.

 Totally on the same page! I mean exactly the opposite.

 For example dash.org. Someone, or group, payed upfront 20k for the premium domain. My guess is probably some Dash were liquidated. So lets imagine you liquidated 5k USD @ 3,2 ...

 Months later, you get payed back 5k USD @4.2 ... totally unfair.

[snipped]...

I’ve been working on the V2 of the budget system for the last few days and I’m neck deep in code, this whole ordeal showed up at a good time actually. I think I have a pretty good understanding of where we need to go and basically the network needs to be able to promise a vendor to pay them for an extended period of time in Dash or USD. To do this I want to implement a new type of proposal, that is called a contract. This would also have some new thresholds so that this doesn't get abused:

- Month-to-month proposals: Requiring 10% support from the network
- Multi-month proposals: Requires 10% support of the network
- 3-month contracts: Requires 20% network support
- 6-month contracts: Requires 33% network support
- 12-month contracts: Requires 51% network support

Proposals can be voted down at any time, whereas contracts have a voting window which is no less than 30 days long. Contracts should be very carefully considered by the network because they are much more dangerous and expose us to a liability and market risk no matter how they are denominated.

USD valuations would also be created via quorum and an average price over a period of 7 days would be used to stop people from attacking the implementation. (e.g. if you dump 10000 coins right before the budget is finalized, you could drop the price by 10% and get 10% more coins as a result, right? To stop this we’ll use quorum based averages).

So assuming this technology exists and we can denominate in Dash or USD, we need to have an entirely different conversation about when to use Dash and when to use USD.

To figure out which denomination is better, let’s consider some examples

250 DASH Proposal - At time of submission we agree to pay $1000 USD in Dash.
$1000 USD Proposal - At time of submission we agree to pay $1000 USD.

UP - Let’s say Dash goes up 100%.

250 DASH Proposal is now worth $2000 and takes the same amount of Dash from the budget.
$1000 USD Proposal is now worth $1000 and takes 50% the amount of Dash from the budget

DOWN - Let’s say Dash goes down 50%

250 DASH Proposal is now worth $500 and takes the same amount of Dash from the budget.
$1000 USD Proposal is now worth $1000 and takes 200% the amount of Dash from the budget

Let’s say we only utilize USD based contracts in the system and in one 6 month period we have obligations for $33,000 per month. At $4.20 per Dash, we should have $33,692 dollars available per month, so that seems reasonable. Let’s say the price goes down 50%, now our budget is $16846.20. Now we have a problem, we’ve promised more money than the system can create in a month.

Option A: If the price falls, we don’t pay out the contracts. In this case we’ve made a contract and burned the bridge with a contractor doing ongoing work. This makes our network unusable long term.

Option B: The proposal system could create unpredictable inflation based on the promises the network is making for USD based contracts.

Option C: We allocate in Dash to avoid all of these issues and don’t support USD based contracts at all.

Option D: We give the foundation a budget to take Dash and convert it to fiat, then it keeps the fiat in a bank account. The contractors would contract with our foundation directly and this bank account would serve as a volatility buffer.

Option E: We allocate only X% of the budgets according to the historical volatility of the currency. This can be calculated by taking two standard deviations from the average price history for a long period of time, then figuring out a high and low price threshold. However, this will still result in contractors getting burned once in a while.

Paging TokNormal and BabyGiraffe

Which brings me to the question that I haven't gotten an answer too...who is livecoin.
who behind and where are the following exchanges:

Poloniex
Bittrex
Livecoin
c-cex
Bter

etc etc.

Is there a link listing the where abouts and whos behind these sites that is handling millions of dollars of our money?!?

No I'm not. Everything I know about charts I learned after starting to trade cryptos and watching people on these forums (+ looking up investopedia and chartschool LoL).

You must just have been impressed by my fancy graphics  

P.S. Tell you who I did learn a lot from  - a guy that went by the handle of BrotherJohnF. He used to do video blogs of bitcoin T/A on the old Clarkmoody Gox chart and his analyses were fantastic. People would hang off his every word. He stopped doing those over a year ago which is a shame. His commentaries have never been bettered IMO. This is his site: www.BrotherJohnF.com

I remember all the great discussions we had on the budgeting system. Some great brainstorming, throwing ideas out, finding problems and weaknesses in the proposals, revising it...

I look forward to doing this with Evolution!

Sure, but it could take a while longer. "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent".

Also, don't want to ruin the party here, but the slope is pretty much the same as the last two attempts at 310-320. See:



EDIT: After looking at my own picture, I see that we had a nearly perfect bearish divergence on the last attempt. Would've been a perfect sell situation.

Good question! Not that much info is available on official website but you can learn more from wiki:
https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=8585240

There are some of us that believe this is a good price and good time to buy.  (and if you just got paid from installing a few solar jobs, you have some funds to put into DASH.)

The question is, do you trust a bank(subject to bail-ins), a fiat currency(inflating away), or the first ever decentralized, distributed voting, private, instant, secure cryptocurrency, with an x% payback with masternodes.

cryptsy/drkbtc
18:21:02 0.01042 5218.92

One was able to get rid of 5218 DASH in one swoop and another was able to get it all at a single price...  hope both parties are happy.  =)  [or it could be the same person]

Don't thank him for dumping.

12:30 AM
xxx otoh, are you selling DASH so the price drops or is it by itself?
12:34 AM
otoh I decided to do some controlled burning just now, rather than let the price drift down I cleared out all the bids from 0.01 to 0.009 and am moving the BTC to USD for my $2 bid wall, I think this may help but who knows - the market always is right and will decide when and where the price goes. The bids are repopulating now somewhat, I'm actually super optimistic for the prospects of DASH, but if the market wants to see how low it can go that's fine by me, when it finds out I expect a mega bounce, I may even precipitate it as I have approx $0.5MM war chest atm should I choose to use it or some.
12:35 AM
xxx What's $0.5MM war chest?
12:36 AM
Oh, I looked it up, nvm
12:36 AM
otoh 5,000 Bengies
12:38 AM
xxx $2 is my entry price, wouldn't feel comfortable if it went lower
12:39 AM
otoh it won't, don't worry, I'm very happy to buy back at that price and will not pull the wall
12:39 AM
xxx ok, thank you for the extensive info
12:40 AM
otoh I actually doubt very much it will even get reached, it's 0.008285 with BTC @ $241.40