Eeee, as I said. It is hard to write such text in foreign language ;-)
I misunderstood english or you misunderstood my text.

It is not needed to return bitcoins because the convention does not force it. The convention is to pay dollars whenever possible. And when in doubt, always pay dollars.

My feelings

When I ordered gold in the US for my bitcoins, I felt some mental discomfort. Defense against any unfair conduct accross the ocean, in a foreign language, in a foreign environment and in different time zone can be very difficult. I wanted to spend my bitcoins for gold when the bitcoin first time exceeded $ 30 per bitcoin. I had no time, bitcoin fall very quickly.

So I ordered my Krugerrand as planned from Coinabul now. Coinabul was recommended me by my previous supplier. That's why I was not looking for anyone in Europe.

Communication with Coinabul proved to be very slow. Any information I received only when I requested it and the answer sometimes took several days. After three weeks it was said me that the Krugerrand will not be send to me. I did not understand Coinabul's reasons and reply to my request to return bitcoins was very confusing. At that moment I began to believe that I become a victim of fraud which further strengthened the refund offer far below the amount sent to the US and five day delay in response to my last mail.

The situation was calmed down by a guy here in Czech Republic which called to Coinabul and to me and explained whole situation. Thank you.

Why Coinabul did not send the Krugerrand

The financial system of the world is sick. Fiat money rules the world and any attempt to change the monopoly on the production of the commodity called "money" is percived as dangerous and suspicious. Bitcoin and gold are precisely those commodities that played the money's role whole ages, or aspire to this role. Any manipulation with them thus attracts the attention of the rulers of the current system and automaticly raises suspicion. Therefore, once the Coinabul had some doubt that everything is legal, they stopped whole action and refused to send me the gold. It is evident in all their mails that they want to have everything in order and the effort could be funny from the outsider point of view. But keep in mind that Coinabul is located in a state which showed how easy could be to destroy their job:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Why the bitcoins was not returned to me

The reason is simple - the did not returned bitcoins because they may not. As I said, current financial system of the world is sick. The only bearer of value are money. It does not matter how the two parties agree - once the relationship is affected by state (courts, financila office, etc.) all the value has to be quoted in money. Someone crashes your car - the court will assign you money compensation, rather than a new car. If someone kill your apple tree, the court will assign you a money, not a bag of apples each of the next twenty years. Coinabul has in terms that they refunds in US dollars. In the doubt, everything is counted in money by the state. Common sense - I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin - is completely unnecessary. This procedure, of course, may damage any part of the trade. And because the rules are determined by the seller, it is the seller which is the stronger part. If the rule "I put bitcoin, I get bitcoin" was valid, the Coinabul's terms would be completely different and the Coinabul would hedge against bitcoin market moves. The hedging is simple - keep  bitcoins until the trade is settled.

Recommended reading:

Murray N. Rothbard: What Has Government Done to Our Money?

Conclusion

I get enough from Coinabul to buy Krugerrand in Europe. From this perspective I'm satisfied. I do not feel to be damaged. However, I have feeling that the things started to move when I made a public circus and that a lot of other people would get from the Coinabul really just the spot gold price and the premium, shipping and insurance paid would keep the Coinabul. At the same time remains in me a sense of disgust at the methods that I can use in the fight for my demands.

Recommendation
If you are outside from US, do not buy in US. When byuing in US, you should be always warned that you are responsible for your local taxes and local laws. If you buy gold in US, there is a chance that the gold is never sent to you.

Final note
It is very hard to write such text in foreign language. Sori from me english :-)

I had a deal with Coinabul. I have not free time just now to write some explanation, I will write it later. My apology for Coinabul.

Exactly. I made the order Feb 6. No confirmation was sent to me, until I asked for it at Feb 13. No mail was sent to me until Feb 27 when I asked for information again and it was told to me that the Krugerrand cannot be sent to me. Three weeks from order! "We will see, what we can do" was replied to me. After next urgencies at Mar 5 I was asked for other week of time. At the moment I believed that I lost all my money and my patience was over. No mercy to scammer. A day later it was offered me $1600 and I have to wait another 5 days for answer. Then I write to this forum.

Are you saying that what Fedex has posted on their website is a lie?
[/quote]

Fedex is not lying. Fedex is mistaken.

There is "zákon 235/2004 Sb. § 92" which defines investment gold and frees the investment gold from value added tax when sold in Czech republic, from EU to Czech republic and when iimporting from other states. There are no restrictions.
Such conditions should be equal in whole European Union, as far as I know.

Look carefully to their TOS:


There are no such restriction. I know this condition because it is not first time I bought something in US. I have been many times noted by the seller: "Be carefull, we are not responsible for your local tax or restrictions."

Look to this:


I can read their TOS three times, I can memorized it, but there is not written "We are not licensed to send gold to Czech Republic".

From the beginning this is Coinabul's fault. They are offering services they are not licensed to. Look for the value they offered me as a refund and tell me: where is a _licensed_ eshop where I can buy Krugerand + shipping + insurance for 1603 USD? Is such eshop existing? This is the reason why I demanded such solution.

Now I carefully read the part of "International Shipping" page sent to me from Coinabul:

> General Customs + Tax Information:
> You are responsible for assuring that any product you order can be
> lawfully imported to your destination country. When ordering from
> Coinabul.com, the recipient(purchaser) is the legal importer of record and
> must comply with all laws and regulations of your destination country.

As far as I know there is no law forbiding ME to import gold to Czech Republic.

Coinabul did not know that they must have licence to export gold to Czech republic and now they says it is MY responsibility.

Yes. I have offered this to Coinabul three times.

Yes. I think so. They have no hedging against the bitcoin market moves so they are not willing to refund in bitcoins.

I'd like to note that Coinabul offered me to refund gold "at the current spot price". This is the first email from them in which they offered me to refund the shipping also.

Uchhhh, the sentence : "Now I send to Jay this email:" is located inside the mail :-(

Hi Jay

You are trying to refund me the trade which never happened.
I have no gold, never had any gold and you make nothing to send the gold to me.
I do not want money for gold which I never had.

Now I send to Jay this email:

I want to make the trade and I accepted the price "The Krugerrand" = "90 BTC".
So this is third time I offer you this:

Buy the Krugerrand for me elsewhere in Europe and send it to me.

I have offer from this company:

http://www.bitcoincommodities.com/

to act as a man in the middle for such trade. They sell to US and Europe
and there would be no problem for them to make such trade. Please, contact
user "2weiX" on bitcointal.org forum and ask him for details.

You have received from me:
90.78 BTC at BTC/USD rate 21.18 = 1922 USD.
As a BTC/USD rate is taken the closing price from MtGox Feb 6.

Buy from bitcoincommodities.com gold Krugerrand for todays price
1709 USD + shipping and everyone will be happy.

Petr

OK. Then I will contact user nanotubes on irc to inform him about Coinabul.

Thanks. I will register and rate Coinabul there.

Please, do you know how to update their status on the #bitcoin-otc ?

I don't know why it is illegal. May be the Czech republic is part of South Africa or North Korea? I don't know :-)

Citation of Jay Coinabul:

Whole email conversation is here:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Think about the "ilegality" whatever you want. I think that the "ilegality" is only a special purpose.

The same in Czech republic - customer has no right to ask for a refund or return at the buyig price if the price depends on the exchange rate. But accordance to Czech republic laws such trade never hapened. I ordered Krugerand + shipping + insurance + express delivery as a complete set. The item was never sent to me. No trade was made. All money must be sent back to me.

I like the equotation

"The Krugerrand" = 90 BTC

So I want to make trade => I have my Krugerrand + shipping + insurance,
or
make no trade => I have my bitcoins.

I gave Coinabul many propositions. One proposition was "man in the middle" - the same offer you gave me. It was said to me that this is illegal. I gave Coinabul this proposition again now. We will see what happen.

Thank you. This is what I wanted and what I offered to Coinabul a week ago. I want to make trade and I will be happy if I get Krugerrand for my bitcoins spent. I will contact Coinabul and send him this offer again.

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/