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Topic
Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"
by
bytemycoin
on 20/12/2015, 17:24:35 UTC
As I understand it, the voting runs forever and is intended to give everyone feedback of what the stakeholders support. So we see currently 34% of the stake weight is voting to end digging, and 66% of it isn't.
I understand waiting a week or more however:
I don't get it. How can any fair voting system take into account those who don't vote? When you say "66% of it isn't" is that not an incorrect statement if it is intending to mean they are against petition 5afa074c?  Even direct abstain votes does not mean they are against any specific petition. 
So this is starting to sound like there has never been any intentions to act on what the greater clam voting community wants. Emphasis on "clam voting community".  Those who don't vote, typically don't want a voice and as is in any truly fair voting system, they are not taken as part of the voting tallies. Else it calls to question the clamour voting system in general (or any voting system to take such an approach).
As for the developers and massive premines, that is a null issue. If this vote was never intended to be acted on, as it is becoming clear, and tallies are based on non voters...then we have exactly what the initial distribution has shown us:  An unfair system that does not support the vast number of newcomers to crypto, rewards criminals who in the past have setup fractional reserve systems and scammed the greater BTC/LTC/Doge community. Exposes anyone who presently supports the greater clams community as we have recently experienced. To quote the old lady in the commercial "None of this makes any sense." 
What really makes me smile is the moniker of "fair distribution"
This whole voting is...well,...a bit fishy.  What am I missing?

You are thinking in terms of 'voting'.
This is counter-intuitive and nuanced, but important: CLAMour is not a 'vote', but an expression of support.
Now we are making it clear to the community that it is but an "expression of support", with no actionable plan. Very new age! For that explanation I thank you. Let's state the obvious, rather the elephant in the room. Ineffectual by design due to the qualities of this coin (more about this below). With the added advantage for those who this rigged system favors.  I hear you loud and clear so will others who read the thread and are frustrated by continual justifications for inaction.

Ironically, the voting (this magical way to express your feelings) came about when the larger community, those who cared (if you magically expressed yourself we can at minimum say you care) had been using this forum to express their desires to do away with a largely unfair system that discriminates amongst new comers, favors past criminals and exposes the very people who support the network to risk. No matter what the original intentions, that is the present day reality.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

Since we are simulating an update-triggered forking change...., Those users could then release an update, without approval, and feel confident that the update would gain consensus on the network.

Nice attempt to try and gloss over the reality of this coin, now lets bring out the elephant...Just-Dice wallets make this decision and you are smart enough to know that. You can use terms like "Fair distribution", "update triggered forking change" or "feel confident that the update would gain consensus on the network" but be aware, try as you may, the greater community is much more intelligent than you make us seem. Statements like those from a smart competent gal like you is condescending at best to those who know the reality. About 84% of the staking community are simply voting by proxy via Just-dice [don't quote me on the 84% as that number is dynamic and I have not recently run the math]. This may not have been by design but it is reality.  It is as true if not truer (as it may be more powerful) then any given line of code in the coin’s protocol.

This reality makes it impossible for simply a community based update triggered fork change.  Many may not like it but it is now part of the corpus of the coin

We can make up nice sounding terms and play cloak and daggers but the reality is clear. Of the voting community the majority already expressed what they want so lets not gloss over the issue. Unless things change substantially in the coin’s ecosystem your quote above is but a farce dream. You know it, I know it and the community knows it.

Now that we have cleared the air I will put on my best hippie cap and go chant my wants barefoot in the park.  Another powerful way for one to express their desires.
Post
Topic
Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"
by
bytemycoin
on 19/12/2015, 20:41:07 UTC

As I understand it, the voting runs forever and is intended to give everyone feedback of what the stakeholders support. So we see currently 34% of the stake weight is voting to end digging, and 66% of it isn't.

I understand waiting a week or more however:

I don't get it. How can any fair voting system take into account those who don't vote? When you say "66% of it isn't" is that not an incorrect statement if it is intending to mean they are against petition 5afa074c?  Even direct abstain votes does not mean they are against any specific petition.  

So this is starting to sound like there has never been any intentions to act on what the greater clam voting community wants. Emphasis on "clam voting community".  Those who don't vote, typically don't want a voice and as is in any truly fair voting system, they are not taken as part of the voting tallies. Else it calls to question the clamour voting system in general (or any voting system to take such an approach).

As for the developers and massive premines, that is a null issue. If this vote was never intended to be acted on, as it is becoming clear, and tallies are based on non voters...then we have exactly what the initial distribution has shown us:  An unfair system that does not support the vast number of newcomers to crypto, rewards criminals who in the past have setup fractional reserve systems and scammed the greater BTC/LTC/Doge community. Exposes anyone who presently supports the greater clams community as we have recently experienced. To quote the old lady in the commercial "None of this makes any sense."  

What really makes me smile is the moniker of "fair distribution"

This whole voting is...well,...a bit fishy.  What am I missing?
Post
Topic
Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"
by
bytemycoin
on 19/12/2015, 19:16:09 UTC
So I was just working through the CLAM issue tracker. I saw that issue #252 was still open even though I already fixed it.

I checked that "clamd getsupport" really did work:

Quote
clamd getsupport
{
  "threshold" : 0,
  "window" : 10000,
  "endblock" : 778536,
  "startblock" : 768537,
  "support" : {
    "0000cb61" : 34,
    "02fde4a4" : 6,
    "066b223d" : 3,
    "26dfbf81" : 8,
    "5afa074c" : 43,
    "694c26a6" : 2,
    "7a69a853" : 25,
    "c9328886" : 2,
    "ea06c089" : 18,
    "eff96b06" : 10,
    "ff839af9" : 33
  }
}

and was surprised to see the vote tallies so small.

Then it occurred to me that since I moved JD to new servers about a week ago, the staking wallet hasn't been supporting any petitions at all.

Oops!

It's fixed again now.

  Before: http://khashier.com/tx/496955fa5e0533cde6d83215bc49874cd58013b182f9b85e810e7ea675b6a0cb

  After: http://khashier.com/tx/ccdb1b89321f0946b7fe6fc21c3c793a6c1cb49365fe6814f6a0f0181b2e0c35

Sorry for the downtime.

Edit: now we see the tallies increasing again:

Quote
$ clamd getsupport
{
  "threshold" : 0,
  "window" : 10000,
  "endblock" : 778660,
  "startblock" : 768661,
  "support" : {
    "0000cb61" : 34,
    "02fde4a4" : 8,
    "066b223d" : 3,
    "26dfbf81" : 8,
    "5afa074c" : 53,
    "694c26a6" : 7,
    "7a69a853" : 29,
    "c9328886" : 2,
    "ea06c089" : 24,
    "eff96b06" : 10,
    "ff839af9" : 46
  }
}

I guess these numbers speak for themselves.  No more need to argue on threads with bias opinions (my own included). It is apparent what the larger clam community wants, or at lest those who have "Stake" in the game (pun intended).  I am actually surprised since I would have not expected such a large number of votes represented.  I know that the Percent of Americans who voted in the 2012 Presidential election was 57.5% (according to http://www.statisticbrain.com/voting-statistics/). If we take the U.S. Presidential election as a benchmark Clamour votes are very well represented.

Do you have numbers on total unique votes?

I would also expect whoever has large numbers of stored keys (maybe the original developer(s)?) to come out of the woodworks and start to dig/dump. The next few weeks will be very revealing. I would love to believe in the honest nature of those who concocted this system of distribution under a cloak of "fairness" but I'd be fetching for straws.

When is the voted on petitions expected to be acted on?

Thanks for the update and fix Doog.



Post
Topic
Board Announcements (Altcoins)
Re: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"
by
bytemycoin
on 13/12/2015, 19:25:30 UTC
At some point, the coin's market cap becomes large enough to absorb the (theoretical) big digs without much damage. It could be rough in the early days, but if the fundamentals are good, things will be fine long term.
The digs are only part of the problem. The potential for the digs also weighs on the coin. The digs add supply which dilutes the value of individual holders (which is fine to a degree, though too quickly causes instability and turns off backers). The potential for big digs will only go away if all the coins are dug, which most of us agree will never happen. But that risk is there and nobody has a plan for it except wait for the supply to balloon enough to devalue the undug supply.

I think you are correct.

We should blacklist Satoshi's coin's - they represent too much risk.

/sarcasm



Sorry for the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm; but, I think the similarity bears mentioning.
There is a silver lining: at least our 'risk', as others have pointed out, reduces over time and represents the potential for growth via new users.

You say new users so glibly. Which new users exactly? All of the new users in Crypto see clams as an unfair distribution these days. a distribution that only benefits the old timers that have been part of the crypto community.  It seems that Clam digging is a promise to the elite that held crypto at some past point in time. Also a promise to them that they can sit back and make money on the backs of those who have supported the Clam community. If they cared about clams they would have dug a long time ago.  Also a windfall promise for those who created any type of "possible" fractional reserve systems with the 3 best known coins.  

So it basically says: if one created a fractional reserve system, as an old time elite and held a lot of keys for users to send them coins while they simply showed DB digits then you can get rewarded big as clams climb. Granted, not all of these systems have been unfair however, with crypto's sorted history a large number of them have been and dozens if not hundreds of examples can be easily given. It is not just the mintpals and MTgox of the world, it is smaller less knows scam sites all over the globe.

This is who Clam's promise is to. How does this distribution make any sense anymore?  Does it not go against the basic premiss of crypto in general.  Is it not a promise similar to what the Federal Reserve does for today's already established elite institutions? That they can simply print money if they are in the proper pre-established position. Alienating the new comers with a blatantly public unfair policy (Do we hide this by simply changing the name and calling it a "promise"?).  It was a good experiment which I am sure had positive intentions but from an outside perspective it is looking a lot like everything that is wrong with the present fiat system. This should start to become apparent to everyone.