Are you interested in exchanging of ORA/XOR for 50,000 tokens of one ancient (older than NXT) and rare coin that is very hard to obtain in large quantities in a short period of time (unless you buy it from me or somebody else) even if you rented all calculating power in the world for that short period of time.

I believe this coin can be near perfect model for ideal distribution that ORA&NEM were trying to achieve.

I bought them for 1 cent a piece, how many ORAs, NEMs, XORas, QORAs or NXTs are you willing to give me for those 50K tokens ?

To get good NXT or QORA price I don't mind to get it through an escrow, which would release your part to me after 6 months to make sure I don't create competitive sell pressure for your distribution.

I also got around 15 mil of useless NAS on dgex if dgex is willing to cooperate and send them to you, I will give them my command to do so.

Does anybody have any concerns with Poloniex having all 5000BTC in their pocket at one point of time ?
I recall an incident with Poloniex hack that made them pass this loss on their customers to avoid completely goxing.
I don't remember size of that loss, but I guess 5000BTC is quite big amount if lost. That loss may gox them.

Also considering the time when Poloniex and ShareXCoin exchange were the only exchanges that had QORA, Poloniex had some trouble that made me (and other people) send my money to ShareXCoin where I successfully lost 100% of my deposit (I don't care about ShareXCoin much because I would lose 80% of it after QORA dump anyway, but I care that Poloniex gave me that incentive).

James, do you have any plans to withdraw portions of those 5000BTC as they flow into Poloniex pockets to prevent Poloniex having all of them at some point in time ?
If not, what can I read about Poloniex business to make me trust them ?
Also why not have IPO on 2 or 3 exchanges to avoid putting all 5000 eggs into one basket ?

What kind of damage are you talking about ? Price ? 5% centralization ? Voting power ? Forging power ?
If thief dumps most of it to different people then there will be no centralization concern.
If thief keeps all 5% then there is no price concern.
What kind of damages can 5% centralization cause ?
Unless NXT price is pumped by few whales, 5% dump should not cause too big price problem, right ?
And if it is pumped then there is significant level of centralization.
On top of it coin pumpers are not better than thieves because pumpers hide real price from investors.
So if pumpers suffer from thief dumping his 5% it will make me happy together with many future investors.


It matters only when currency depends on community because precedent affects opinion of that community.
Ideal currency will not depend on community. NXT is not ideal.
I am sure after World War III and deaths of millions of people there will be millions of reasons for community to break even good established precedent of not rolling back.
Forget about investors losing capital or breaking all unwritten rules, people's life or death will be at stake. And any millionaire forger who is against helping them will be mocked (and possibly DDOSed) by angry crowd.
Then it will slip little by little into smaller rollbacks to allow people to not die from hunger, plague, viruses, homelessness, unhappiness, e.t.c. And then these rollbacks will become result of bribes and power grabs ...

I know. The answer is to develop crypto currency that does not give community any choice.
It's hard, but it's the only thing that will not be destroyed by community over time.
US Constitution was gradually destroyed during past 100 years only because people had that choice.

With power comes risk. When any stakeholder has power to affect other stakeholders, he is in danger of being forced to use that power in government (or community majority) interests under penalty of punishment (or whatever paper government decides to serve forger with). Look at all people paying insane taxes against their will (including me) - it shows how easy for government to force people to do anything. If US Constitution did not leave that choice we would live in a very happy world right now without wars, hunger, terrorism and all other crap happening.

Take that choice away from people and they will feel much safer holding your currency.

CfB gave that choice to forgers. It was good test of public opinion and subject of discussion and ideas.
But that was good only during experiment, which is called NXT.
Having that choice is not good in production environment.

What if that thief is disabled African American human being that has deadly disease which can definitely be cured with 5% of NXT supply ?
Are you inhumane racist advocating probable death of that human being just to keep greedy capital holders with their easy earned in IPO money ?

Or may be thief is innocent girl trying to buy a gun with 5% of NXT to kill her drug dealer brother before he kills her for talking to police ?


NXT is already a joke because it allows forks to happen and does not have plan of permanent enforcement of any dogmatic ideological belief.

Some form of "justice" is not needed to keep computers calculating.
And it's not needed for currency to work.


I agree that polling community interests is beneficial.

So NXT is experiment and is not supposed to be taken seriously or used in production environment in long run.
Then why do we care so much about that theft ?
It was thief's experiment too. Why try to catch that guy or threaten him with real life punishment ?

It would be good to know if there are any plans to discontinue NXT experiment or convert NXT currency from experimental status to production status.
May be then thief will discontinue his experiment too ... 

Or may be it was BTER experiment to destroy experimental competitor DGEX by destroying experimental NXT currency using power of NXT community of experimentators ... 

Chris, I like your posts and agree that rollback should never happen or even be up for any sort of voting or even have slight possibility of happening.
Ideally hard forks should be impossible as well as any software updates to core library and protocol.

However, the main obstacle here is that programmers are not capable to implement anything without bugs to be able to irreversibly close the gate of software updates that they usually use to correct own mistakes. If that gate was closed it would make it impossible to rollback or do anything else that majority of forgers may decide to do.

Currently all cryptos have that gate open and majority of forgers trust and depend upon software updates from dev team, which makes dev team one central power that can decide the future and change the past. Of course, forgers have final say of what they run on their servers, but what if dev makes a bug on purpose that nobody notices and then publishes new version with hard fork that would nullify balances of all accounts that end with digit 0 or have less than 7 digits. Forgers will have no choice, but to obey and update because otherwise bug will do something worse...
What if majority of forgers at some point happen to be US citizens and US govt obligated them to do software update prepared by NSA with hard fork banning all accounts that they deem to belong to Chinese.

Democracy/decentralization was only chosen as the only known way to mitigate that obstacle (by keeping the gate open while allowing only consensus to decide what goes through).
Both democracy and decentralization are not ideal and actually are bad given that majority of voters are retards or clueless making votes based on distorted information distributed by centralized media channels.
Example: Adolph Hitler was democratically elected. Some may argue that his removal through time machine localized rollback would make it worse by allowing Stalin to conquer the world, but I doubt that German voters thought about opposition to Stalin when they voted for Adolph Hitler. Another theory could be that Adolph Hitler was good at the time of election, but transformed his positions due to threat from Stalin, but I will let historians to counter that argument and consequently prove that democracy sucks.

One significant difference that I see between government supported democracy and crypto decentralization is that in democracy one human has one vote, but in crypto decentralization one coin has one vote. Crypto decentralization helps to somewhat mitigate disadvantage of democracy where retards have to much voting power just because retards usually don't have as many coins as smart people. But it does not solve problem of clueless vote of smart people based on information that they learn. And while power is distributed, information channel that they trust may be centralized, which makes the whole thing centralized.
Example: US voters had real chances to elect someone who is not republican or democrat, but failed to do so mostly because of centralized mass media channel controlled by republicans&democrats.
Another example: let US voters to vote for bombing and occupation of major foreign oil regions to save US govt from default, repay all US debt and keep gas prices below 40 cents/gallon - what do you think the vote result will be ?

My point is - democracy or decentralization are not goals, but only available at the moment faulty tools.
The goal is to have a system with never changing set of rules like The Constitution.

We have to invent reliable set of mathematical rules, build crypto system without bugs that enforces these rules and make it impossible to ever change that system.
That should be the goal of all best hackers in the world. If they can't produce system without bugs then they are not as good as they seem.

Example of closing the main gate was when George Washington relinquished his power to The Constitution and The People.
But he was afraid of mistakes/bugs too, so he left many smaller gates open to change it by The People.

So around 1913 some of these gates could not hold pressure of change from powerful financial elite and were broken letting flood of evil to come to US land.
After that most of gates that were so well established before, were broken by The People who were practically forced to do so by accumulated evil through main leak of 1913.

Gold confiscation was one of those broken rules and is similar to the rollback. The People decided that those who have gold did not obtain it properly or otherwise did not deserve to keep it, so ugly rollback was implemented in form of confiscation.

Since we have chicken and egg problem with dev and crypto currency, it must be solved same way as George Washington did. Dev at some point must relinquish his power by closing software update gate in such a way that it can never be opened again even by himself or with any less than 100% consensus. Only 100% consensus can change it by shutting down all servers and destroying the whole network.

Those are good points, except Google, Apple, BTC and LTC are in liquid markets so it's very expensive to manipulate them - only central banks can do that.
Also, I don't know, but I guess SEC rules probably forbid companies from selling and buying to themselves with purpose of price manipulation and creation of artificial trends for publicly traded stocks like Google and Apple. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes.
All IPO investors got it for 1.3 sat (130BTC / 10,000,000,000 QORA).
Are you comfortable giving them 20x profit ?

If any investor can prove that he invested same amount into 10 failed coins and lost it on all except QORA then I will buy it for 20 sat.

How do you know if 20 sat is real market price ?
What prevents big holders from selling it to themselves with tiny loss on exchange fees ?
Considering that market is very thin and exchange fees are very small, it's easy to manipulate the market selling to themselves.
This is why they are constantly bitching about someone selling QORA  - because they have to buy it all from anyone who is selling below price that they like to maintain.

Prove me wrong and I will buy at 20 sat.

Any major QORA holder wants to double IPO investment without risk of creating sell-side price competition ?
Want to help with QORA distribution ?
Want to give me insentives to do some apps development for QORA ?

I will buy 20 mil QORA at 2 sat price (0.4 BTC total).
I will send my BTC to seller immediately after escrow receives QORAs, but escrow will hold my QORAs in his account for 6 months until sending them to me.

I sent 12.9245 PTS to my online wallet http://pts-bitshares.com
Txid: 2646dcaa67ee8421e1407935b33d13b726e8a9af9089d3b589e7ba328bb1d52f

I made 2 transactions that are still processing:
   -5   0.01   2014-07-15 08:24:46   PaNGELmZgzRQCKeEKM6ifgTqNkC4ceiAWw   Processing
    -7.8   0.01   2014-07-16 00:31:30   Pacy5Uhn6W1LkENiJgE3kGeFYRJYXiTwaZ   Processing

Is pts-bitshares.com a scam website ?

That prevents me from donating my 12 PTS to Bitshares.

Can somebody help ?
I already sent them message, but to no effect.
It's last day already and it looks like these 2 transactions are not going to make it.

What is "Business address transaction fees" ?

I don't like 50 Million number. It's harder to calculate price from market cap than with 1 billion.
I suggest that number should start with 1 and have all 0s after that.

Why do you think that "50 Million Kora is *probably* better than 10 billion" ?

If we are going to have up to 8 decimal digits anyway, then why not make it 1 million or 1 billion or 1 trillion ?

One thing that matters to me is how many 0s I have to count when trading.
Total number of coins should be chosen to help with that.
I guess 10 billion was chosen for QORA to match current total market cap 10 billion USD, which will become convenient when QORA takes over the market and 1 QORA becomes = 1 USD, which improves convenience of QORA/USD trading.

I think NXT choice of 1 billion was good number, 0000 is readable and if it takes over BTC then NXT will cost around 10$ - also readable.
I'd like to see something similar with KORA - 1 billion or may be 100 million or 10 million, but not 50 million or 5 million or 500 million.

New Member!

I guess spot #144 is vacant.
NXTL: 3701493936345227056
https://blockchain.info/tx/6a43e3bba2bd6b05ad87a9e10a049e6b93dd671858a1ffb777dc382443ceba1f

I don't understand why there are 2 topics, I also posted same message here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=562027.420

New Member!

I guess spot #144 is vacant.
NXTL: 3701493936345227056
https://blockchain.info/tx/6a43e3bba2bd6b05ad87a9e10a049e6b93dd671858a1ffb777dc382443ceba1f