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Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
these fpga threads are killin' me, can someone just make a plug-and-play fpga miner and sell it to me already?
Couldn't agree more...
We are working on it stealthily.
Who's "we"? You mean "Bitmain"?
Edit: Apologies, I went back and saw your original post on May 8.
After spending a lot of time in this thread, I met someone that "knows" a fair amount about this topic (arguably, more than anyone else in the entire world...).
According to them, Intel is not planning on flooding anything. Intel has practically liquidated their sales team and only Alterra customer is actually Intel itself. In fact, they are having a lot of problems in the 10nm process and not able to make it work.
Recent releases of their FPGA lines have had numerous technical issues. So if anything, Intel's line is all but dead. Leaving Xilinx as the lion share of the market won't give them much reason to lower prices. What I heard is that if anything, they are raising costs...
So, we need to all keep working on this. But from my intel (pun intended), a lot of the comments about pricing seem overly optimistic...
According to them, Intel is not planning on flooding anything. Intel has practically liquidated their sales team and only Alterra customer is actually Intel itself. In fact, they are having a lot of problems in the 10nm process and not able to make it work.
Recent releases of their FPGA lines have had numerous technical issues. So if anything, Intel's line is all but dead. Leaving Xilinx as the lion share of the market won't give them much reason to lower prices. What I heard is that if anything, they are raising costs...
So, we need to all keep working on this. But from my intel (pun intended), a lot of the comments about pricing seem overly optimistic...
Yes, their 10nm FPGA are terrible... I'm starting to wonder if it's a vaporware product...
All jokes aside, I don't think your friend and us are talking about the same thing. If the situation at Intel is as bad as he believes, comparatively, the situation at Xilinx has to be a lot worse.
On the other hand there is always crypto mining
Who knows if that even makes sense, but at least there are a bunch of people working on it. If I had a goal out of this it wouldn't be to save the FPGA industry. It would be to distribute as much hashing power (and quidproquo energy density thereof) as quickly as possible in a totally and completely decentralized way. Timer... start! Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
these fpga threads are killin' me, can someone just make a plug-and-play fpga miner and sell it to me already?
Couldn't agree more...
We are working on it stealthily.
Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
After spending a lot of time in this thread, I met someone that "knows" a fair amount about this topic (arguably, more than anyone else in the entire world...).
According to them, Intel is not planning on flooding anything. Intel has practically liquidated their sales team and only Alterra customer is actually Intel itself. In fact, they are having a lot of problems in the 10nm process and not able to make it work.
Recent releases of their FPGA lines have had numerous technical issues. So if anything, Intel's line is all but dead. Leaving Xilinx as the lion share of the market won't give them much reason to lower prices. What I heard is that if anything, they are raising costs...
So, we need to all keep working on this. But from my intel (pun intended), a lot of the comments about pricing seem overly optimistic...
I'm pretty sure intel's plan is to flood the market. Why else would they be developing hybrid cpu/fpgas (like APUs) or why would they bother to create the CCIX interconnect? They're definitely going to flood the market.
Not exactly flooding the market with cheap ultrascale+ class products ...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12773/intel-shows-xeon-scalable-gold-6138p-with-integrated-fpga-shipping-to-vendors
sampling now to special customers. spendy and only an arria 10.
it'll be quite a while before we're seeing affordable integrated stratix10 / x86 products that mom and pop can afford.
I think our definitions of flood the market differ. You're thinking about it from a consumer level -- It will eventually be that way -- But not in the next 12 months. If intel had the same practices as Xilinx, the Xeon 4116 system I just built would have cost me $100,000... Not $6,000... And I would have had to design my own motherboard, because they wouldn't have allowed me to produce their reference design... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a $500-1000 unit cost on a large Stratix or Ultrascale+ part with HBM2 once production is moving 100K units a month. If Xilinx has their way, that part would cost $5,000-10,000 at "volume". If Intel increases their market share by expanding the market, and making these chips available at the enterprise level for hardware acceleration of databases, web servers, etc.... It's not unreasonable to think they could move 100K units a month at a $500-$1000 cost.. Amazon is currently leasing Xilinx fpgas. Do you think AWS would be interested in including FPGA logic in every single one of their servers? What about tencent? What about Baidu? What about every other provider on the planet? There's a storm on the horizon and it's going to be beautiful to watch.
The value of these devices in the server markets is in the 100s of billions. Far beyond their value in crypto markets, defense, etc, IMO. Xilinx has been very short sighted in their attempt to make profit. The world needs low cost FPGA. Not having it is preventing major advancements in computing.
According to them, Intel is not planning on flooding anything. Intel has practically liquidated their sales team and only Alterra customer is actually Intel itself. In fact, they are having a lot of problems in the 10nm process and not able to make it work.
Recent releases of their FPGA lines have had numerous technical issues. So if anything, Intel's line is all but dead. Leaving Xilinx as the lion share of the market won't give them much reason to lower prices. What I heard is that if anything, they are raising costs...
So, we need to all keep working on this. But from my intel (pun intended), a lot of the comments about pricing seem overly optimistic...
I'm pretty sure intel's plan is to flood the market. Why else would they be developing hybrid cpu/fpgas (like APUs) or why would they bother to create the CCIX interconnect? They're definitely going to flood the market.
Not exactly flooding the market with cheap ultrascale+ class products ...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12773/intel-shows-xeon-scalable-gold-6138p-with-integrated-fpga-shipping-to-vendors
sampling now to special customers. spendy and only an arria 10.
it'll be quite a while before we're seeing affordable integrated stratix10 / x86 products that mom and pop can afford.
I think our definitions of flood the market differ. You're thinking about it from a consumer level -- It will eventually be that way -- But not in the next 12 months. If intel had the same practices as Xilinx, the Xeon 4116 system I just built would have cost me $100,000... Not $6,000... And I would have had to design my own motherboard, because they wouldn't have allowed me to produce their reference design... I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a $500-1000 unit cost on a large Stratix or Ultrascale+ part with HBM2 once production is moving 100K units a month. If Xilinx has their way, that part would cost $5,000-10,000 at "volume". If Intel increases their market share by expanding the market, and making these chips available at the enterprise level for hardware acceleration of databases, web servers, etc.... It's not unreasonable to think they could move 100K units a month at a $500-$1000 cost.. Amazon is currently leasing Xilinx fpgas. Do you think AWS would be interested in including FPGA logic in every single one of their servers? What about tencent? What about Baidu? What about every other provider on the planet? There's a storm on the horizon and it's going to be beautiful to watch.
The value of these devices in the server markets is in the 100s of billions. Far beyond their value in crypto markets, defense, etc, IMO. Xilinx has been very short sighted in their attempt to make profit. The world needs low cost FPGA. Not having it is preventing major advancements in computing.
Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
Whats wrong with 900W to 1kw per hour exactly? Other than being pedantic I think that saying consumption is 0.9-1 KWH is understood.
Your teacher should have explained to you what is the difference between kW/h and kWh.But on a marketing site dedicated for miners, that to quote earlier post in this thread:
The fact is that 95% of miners out there have a very rudimentary understanding of computers, algorithms, and programming.
I would add that they also have rudimentary understanding of literacy and numeracy.This is what makes reading mining forums such a great fun. Are people really that stupid or are they just pretending? How to they are going to bamboozle people with bullshit calculations involving non-existing units of measure like kelvin-watt-henry?
On this occasion I'd like to post a good advice that reeses had given about
I'd recommend reading "The Big Con" for some of the history, and watching Confidence and The Sting as examples of the "classic" con games.
I read that book, and although it was written between the world wars, it is very pertaining to - Locating and investigating a well-to-do victim. (Putting the mark up.)
- Gaining the victims confidence. (Playing the con for him.)
- Steering him to meet the insideman. (Roping the mark.)
- Permitting the insideman to show him how he can make a large amount of money dishonestly. (Telling him the tale.)
- Allowing the victim to make a substantial profit. (Giving him the convincer.)
- Determining exactly how much he will invest. (Giving him the breakdown.)
- Sending him home for his amount of money. (Putting him on the send.)
- Playing him against a big store and fleecing him. (Taking off the touch.)
- Getting him out of the way as quietly as possible. (Blowing him off.)
- Forestalling action by the law. (Putting in the fix.)
Really not meaning to offend anyone, this has been a very interesting and entertaining thread, even inspiring all around in a way that leads to substantially more decentralization. However, as an energy industry professional I must say that a kw/h and a kWh is substantially exactly the same thing. Not sure what you guys are onto here... a kW is a unit of energy, it is a 1,000 Watts. Watts are convertible to Joules or Therms or any other unit of energy. And a kW/h is the number of kiloWatts consumed in an hour, as is a kWh, the number of kiloWatts consumed in an hour. a kW is a measurement of power, and a kWh is a volumetric measurement of energy. you can use 100kW in one hour is 100kWh or you can use 50kW for 30 minutes and 150kW for 30 minutes and it will also be 100kWh.
How is the original post confusing or misleading again? No, the OP hasn't offered "evidence" of his experimentation other than several photos and videos, but a lot of people that seem to know the art well are discussing the possibilities in a meaningful way, which makes the claims relatively speaking, plausible. And considering how FPGA's have been used for ages to mine similar algorithms, and considering how the FPGA's currently available OTS are dramatically larger and more powerful than those original silicon used to mine BTC... it all makes perfect sense.
Why not just wait until May 30th or whatever and let him release his work to the various people that are willing to try it out and have hardware? And if none of it materializes, the difference between a kW/h and a kWh is totally irrelevant. And if it does, that is really neat too.
Just saying... of course seeing is believing, but not really any reason not too here. If Bittware or anyone else is trying to just unload a bunch of hardware, do they really need to do it in a bitcoin talk forum? I think there is more going on out in the world than what people are making out here. Healthy skepticism sure... but look at the size of this thread! People realize this is a really important topic, there is a reason for it. Centralization of hashing power and ASIC's in general are beginning to threaten the security of crypto software... the very thing it was meant to solve. Not good...
Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
TLDR: Sounds Neat. Do it if you can afford it. Be aware of cost and risk factor of future support.
I have been mining off-and-on since 2014 and I remember quite well the FPGA interest back in 2014. I'm sure there have been other FPGA efforts before 2014 but my point is to simply share my own opinion.
First, I'll just say this is probably a great opportunity for people who can afford this. Not everyone will be on board to spend $5K to get a system running. That's a rough estimate.. but $4K for the FPGA and then whatever else for ancillary equipment like mobo/ram/psu/etc.
So people saying that this will cause the demise of GPU mining are being short sighted.
Asides from being expensive, it is technically daunting. We would be relying on a programmer for future firmware updates and from what I've seen the support is just not to the same scale as the existing support for other mining options.
So I'll just summarize by saying this sounds like an awesome opportunity for diversification of a mining portfolio if you have the money for that. I imagine youtubers like VoskCoin would be jumping all over this.
TLDR: Sounds Neat. Do it if you can afford it. Be aware of cost and risk factor of future support.
I have been mining off-and-on since 2014 and I remember quite well the FPGA interest back in 2014. I'm sure there have been other FPGA efforts before 2014 but my point is to simply share my own opinion.
First, I'll just say this is probably a great opportunity for people who can afford this. Not everyone will be on board to spend $5K to get a system running. That's a rough estimate.. but $4K for the FPGA and then whatever else for ancillary equipment like mobo/ram/psu/etc.
So people saying that this will cause the demise of GPU mining are being short sighted.
Asides from being expensive, it is technically daunting. We would be relying on a programmer for future firmware updates and from what I've seen the support is just not to the same scale as the existing support for other mining options.
So I'll just summarize by saying this sounds like an awesome opportunity for diversification of a mining portfolio if you have the money for that. I imagine youtubers like VoskCoin would be jumping all over this.
TLDR: Sounds Neat. Do it if you can afford it. Be aware of cost and risk factor of future support.
This is probably one of the best and grounded comments I've read on this forum in a long time. The fact is that 95% of miners out there have a very rudimentary understanding of computers, algorithms, and programming. The barrier for entry is minuscule; Buy a few GPUs and there are numerous programs available that are designed to mine on them. I really can't envision a scenario where FPGAs will become fully mainstream. As evidenced by all of the posts on here, they are difficult to buy, let alone program. The real profits are always going to go to the people who spend the time and effort to find an edge in the mining game that goes beyond Nvidia, AMD, and Bitmain.
Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
Not to be a big skeptic, but can we see actual mining rewards / performance somewhere?
I get that you say the ROI is 70-200 but I dont see much evidence that its anywhere near that without some serious video/photos its hard to put trust in something without ensuring that it does what you say it does.
What I see is:
1) GPU mining is losing its profitable and ASICs are knocking down the doors, this causes people to find other outlets
2) The OP is probably getting a referral payment for any hardware sales with these two companies (if not, maybe he should? I dont know, being transparent about this would be best)
3) OP has the ability (or could?) to lock the device with a signature to only work with his software, which makes them paperweights if he chooses to do some shady things (not saying he will or thats the case)
I would prefer decentralization in this field, the only way that'll happen is to remove the barrier from entry between the manu and software, middle man are reaping the rewards here.
I get that you say the ROI is 70-200 but I dont see much evidence that its anywhere near that without some serious video/photos its hard to put trust in something without ensuring that it does what you say it does.
What I see is:
1) GPU mining is losing its profitable and ASICs are knocking down the doors, this causes people to find other outlets
2) The OP is probably getting a referral payment for any hardware sales with these two companies (if not, maybe he should? I dont know, being transparent about this would be best)
3) OP has the ability (or could?) to lock the device with a signature to only work with his software, which makes them paperweights if he chooses to do some shady things (not saying he will or thats the case)
I would prefer decentralization in this field, the only way that'll happen is to remove the barrier from entry between the manu and software, middle man are reaping the rewards here.
Did you read my previous post about Personal Accelerator and Open Source Org for development, maintenance and support of FPGA algorithm programming?
Re: DIY FPGA Mining rig for any algorithm with fast ROI
I learned about this post and read in detail. It has become very inspiring, as I am both a crypto mining, AI and energy enthusiast (and professional). There are looming issues around the sustainability of PoW crypto economies, concentration of power in crypto economies, regulation of crypto economies and even availability of power for not only crypto security but also for other high density advancements in technology driven by AI.
For a long time I have felt that there needed to be a more distributed solution to secure the network. Many limitations to GPU mining including power consumption and regulation (even as to individuals but also commercial operations) and simply a huge difficulty in building and maintaining mining rigs that are preventing a broader adoption. Normal people simply can't handle it. I have tons of friends who are like "I would love to have one of those in my living room, I don't care how much it makes but it looks so cool!" I meet software developers that come into my office and see my mining rigs and don't even know what they are. We think everyone in the world knows everything about crypto. But they don't.
This FPGA solution can answer many of those problems, by reducing the amount of power, space and cooling required to maintain blockchain security in PoW systems. Prior to the newer and larger FPGA products this hasn't really been possible.
This has inspired me to consider developing a consumer grade, multi-purpose work station with specific capabilities needed for FPGA mining and deep learning networks. A "Personal Accelerator"
Link to sample marketing document I created for the project: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7w6ibv6q6o5x21k/algorithmic.energy.pdf?dl=0
As many people have commented, an open source, community based development approach is probably best. The question remains how to compensate early developers to get it going. Because the FPGA firmware will be hardware specific, this should be easy for hardware makers to do based on cost recovery from hardware sales. I believe that the developers should be compensated for time and costs as any engineer is, but that the growth and maintenance of the available firmware libraries can be built on open source networks and a dedicated (even decentralized) organization.
In a consumer grade product with multiple potential utility streams, it would be possible to leverage traditional financing solutions and with sufficient revenue from mining or cloud computing operations would be net revenue positive from the first day of ownership. By exponentially expanding the potential network, outside of government regulation and concentration of power, it would be possible to overcome both the GPU and ASIC hashing capacity.
What better place to open this can of worms that here. Looking forward to thoughts and comments.
Initial questions would be:
1. Optimal selection of hardware based on cost/performance/packaging. Currently looking at Alpha Data 8k5 with Xilinx KU115 core or comparable packages. Open to any suggestions, however the VU9 does seem a bit much for this kind of solution, the FPGA package needs to come in the $3K-$4K range tops and I don't see Xilinx doing it, even at volume. A data center will pay much more than that, why would they lower their pants? They won't...
2. Support from OP and/or other thread members in working on the open source, based on below T&C assumptions?
3. Should there be a "maintenance model" in which the Open Source Org captures a portion of the revenue to maintain and grow support for new algorithms and uses (including deep learning networks), OR should there be a fixed fee charged upfront (included in hardware purchase price) for a "support term" and then an annual support fee when that term expires? I personally prefer the latter, much simpler.
4. Any ideas on how big of a support team would be required to maintain the org? Would 3 full time developers x $150K/year salary+ 1 full time QC x $100K/year salary overhead $50K/head = $750K/year be sufficient?
5. Would people buy this hardware for the suggested price range $5500-$6500? Would they finance it for 24 months for $265/month (including support and warranty)? Would your friends or family do the same?
6. Anybody interested in investing or partnering in the hardware company? I am currently already looking at MFG solutions and supply chain and have most of that scoped out for volume production, the main part missing would be the firmware and algorithm development and QC. I have been building hardware, sensors, and software (including SaaS) for the last 18 years of my life. I think we can handle this and put a good team together.
7. What do people think of a "trade in" option, where you can get a credit value for exchanging your current GPU mining rig? We could reclaim existing GPU's, set them back to factory specs and then release them back to the gamers for reasonable prices that they so desperately have needed.
Although I appreciate answers from everyone, if someone is interested in a closer relationship I would only be interested in working with serious, professional people. This is not intended to be a hobbyist solution, but a real commercial, consumer grade product run by competent, experienced and professional management. If you have less than 5-10 years of experience in the field and don't have credible professional references as an entrepreneaur, investor or engineer, then this is probably not an opportunity for you at this time (not to be unfair, just realistic).
For a long time I have felt that there needed to be a more distributed solution to secure the network. Many limitations to GPU mining including power consumption and regulation (even as to individuals but also commercial operations) and simply a huge difficulty in building and maintaining mining rigs that are preventing a broader adoption. Normal people simply can't handle it. I have tons of friends who are like "I would love to have one of those in my living room, I don't care how much it makes but it looks so cool!" I meet software developers that come into my office and see my mining rigs and don't even know what they are. We think everyone in the world knows everything about crypto. But they don't.
This FPGA solution can answer many of those problems, by reducing the amount of power, space and cooling required to maintain blockchain security in PoW systems. Prior to the newer and larger FPGA products this hasn't really been possible.
This has inspired me to consider developing a consumer grade, multi-purpose work station with specific capabilities needed for FPGA mining and deep learning networks. A "Personal Accelerator"
Link to sample marketing document I created for the project: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7w6ibv6q6o5x21k/algorithmic.energy.pdf?dl=0
As many people have commented, an open source, community based development approach is probably best. The question remains how to compensate early developers to get it going. Because the FPGA firmware will be hardware specific, this should be easy for hardware makers to do based on cost recovery from hardware sales. I believe that the developers should be compensated for time and costs as any engineer is, but that the growth and maintenance of the available firmware libraries can be built on open source networks and a dedicated (even decentralized) organization.
In a consumer grade product with multiple potential utility streams, it would be possible to leverage traditional financing solutions and with sufficient revenue from mining or cloud computing operations would be net revenue positive from the first day of ownership. By exponentially expanding the potential network, outside of government regulation and concentration of power, it would be possible to overcome both the GPU and ASIC hashing capacity.
What better place to open this can of worms that here. Looking forward to thoughts and comments.
Initial questions would be:
1. Optimal selection of hardware based on cost/performance/packaging. Currently looking at Alpha Data 8k5 with Xilinx KU115 core or comparable packages. Open to any suggestions, however the VU9 does seem a bit much for this kind of solution, the FPGA package needs to come in the $3K-$4K range tops and I don't see Xilinx doing it, even at volume. A data center will pay much more than that, why would they lower their pants? They won't...
2. Support from OP and/or other thread members in working on the open source, based on below T&C assumptions?
3. Should there be a "maintenance model" in which the Open Source Org captures a portion of the revenue to maintain and grow support for new algorithms and uses (including deep learning networks), OR should there be a fixed fee charged upfront (included in hardware purchase price) for a "support term" and then an annual support fee when that term expires? I personally prefer the latter, much simpler.
4. Any ideas on how big of a support team would be required to maintain the org? Would 3 full time developers x $150K/year salary+ 1 full time QC x $100K/year salary overhead $50K/head = $750K/year be sufficient?
5. Would people buy this hardware for the suggested price range $5500-$6500? Would they finance it for 24 months for $265/month (including support and warranty)? Would your friends or family do the same?
6. Anybody interested in investing or partnering in the hardware company? I am currently already looking at MFG solutions and supply chain and have most of that scoped out for volume production, the main part missing would be the firmware and algorithm development and QC. I have been building hardware, sensors, and software (including SaaS) for the last 18 years of my life. I think we can handle this and put a good team together.
7. What do people think of a "trade in" option, where you can get a credit value for exchanging your current GPU mining rig? We could reclaim existing GPU's, set them back to factory specs and then release them back to the gamers for reasonable prices that they so desperately have needed.
Although I appreciate answers from everyone, if someone is interested in a closer relationship I would only be interested in working with serious, professional people. This is not intended to be a hobbyist solution, but a real commercial, consumer grade product run by competent, experienced and professional management. If you have less than 5-10 years of experience in the field and don't have credible professional references as an entrepreneaur, investor or engineer, then this is probably not an opportunity for you at this time (not to be unfair, just realistic).