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This is a very skewed view, to imply that there is a umbilical cord between BTC and USD.
Lemme summarise couple of points to ponder:
1. Although most Bitcoin nodes are in China, the most BTC speculators are from US.
2. What defines the size of a market is not it's location, but the volume of currency-pairs traded on that market.
3. Mt Gox provides the largest number of markets, the one with the highest volume (by far) is the BTC/USD.
4. There are other smaller exchanges, who also offer the most popular pair, but their volumes are not that great.
5. US citizens form the largest group of BTC/USD speculators, no one stops them from trading any other currency-pair, but they have chosen that it is most convenient for them to trade for BTC/USD, deposit and withdraw in USD too.
6. There are myriad of traditional currency exchanges, some of them very good too (XE Forex comes to mind), but obviously people do not want to be bothered to trade currencies in multiple dimensions
, example: trade BTC/USD, withdraw in XE wallet in USD, exchange that for EUR, trade EUR/AUD, deposit AUD to MtGox, trade AUD/BTC, profit!
7. Liquidity is king, at least in the speculator's land, hence that's what defines a good market.
8. With the blockage of Dwola, MtGox has found themselves with a challenge on their hands, but nothing so severe that they are not able to address (proven history of problem-solving) in time.
9. So, the real challenge is facing the US based speculators - if they want to trade the BTC/USD pair, the onus is on them to find an exchange that offers great liquidity and transaction volume in their choice of fiat, then they have to find efficient way to deposit and withdraw from that exchange.
10. No speculator cares about centralised/decentralised nature of the market, they are quite used to a centralised/regulated exchanges.
11. It takes time to react to any changes in environment, Rome was not build in one day.
Methinks...
Lemme summarise couple of points to ponder:
1. Although most Bitcoin nodes are in China, the most BTC speculators are from US.
2. What defines the size of a market is not it's location, but the volume of currency-pairs traded on that market.
3. Mt Gox provides the largest number of markets, the one with the highest volume (by far) is the BTC/USD.
4. There are other smaller exchanges, who also offer the most popular pair, but their volumes are not that great.
5. US citizens form the largest group of BTC/USD speculators, no one stops them from trading any other currency-pair, but they have chosen that it is most convenient for them to trade for BTC/USD, deposit and withdraw in USD too.
6. There are myriad of traditional currency exchanges, some of them very good too (XE Forex comes to mind), but obviously people do not want to be bothered to trade currencies in multiple dimensions
, example: trade BTC/USD, withdraw in XE wallet in USD, exchange that for EUR, trade EUR/AUD, deposit AUD to MtGox, trade AUD/BTC, profit!7. Liquidity is king, at least in the speculator's land, hence that's what defines a good market.
8. With the blockage of Dwola, MtGox has found themselves with a challenge on their hands, but nothing so severe that they are not able to address (proven history of problem-solving) in time.
9. So, the real challenge is facing the US based speculators - if they want to trade the BTC/USD pair, the onus is on them to find an exchange that offers great liquidity and transaction volume in their choice of fiat, then they have to find efficient way to deposit and withdraw from that exchange.
10. No speculator cares about centralised/decentralised nature of the market, they are quite used to a centralised/regulated exchanges.
11. It takes time to react to any changes in environment, Rome was not build in one day.
Methinks...
I've followed the two threads with great curiosity.
Although I (like many others) felt disappointed that the house did not sell, it did not actually came as a surprise to me.
The main reason, I believe, is because the OP managed to threaten the most basic foundation of this forum - the anonymity of its users.
By offering an immovable property for sale, implying that the process will require the successful bidder to disclose his identity, I believe automatically antagonised majority (if not all) users here.
For some reason, most of the users on this forum get very upset if something forces them to reveal their identity. I don't know, perhaps most of the users are not proud of themselves and that's the reason they like hiding behind a pseudonym. But these same users are also very happy to reveal their identity when purchasing large ticket items with BTC, as long as the trade does not happen on this forum but on a different site. The mind boggles.
@ bitcoin_bob, don't despair, I see your efforts as genuine and sincere, and I wish you, at the end, manage to sell your girlfriend's house for BTC, I agree that will make a good precedent and help the Bitcoin cause.
But that's not going to happen here, on this forum - if the trolls do not pollute your thread and reduce it to a series of ignored users' posts, the resident idiots will keep sabotaging your auctions until they see you give up.
My advise would be to list the house on e-Bay (UK is the most logical choice), state that you would accept Bitcoin, and then post a link to the e-bay auction on this forum for discussions - but be prepared to ignore many of the idiots that will come and chirp-in and soil your discussion thread, as this is what they do for fun.
Although I (like many others) felt disappointed that the house did not sell, it did not actually came as a surprise to me.
The main reason, I believe, is because the OP managed to threaten the most basic foundation of this forum - the anonymity of its users.
By offering an immovable property for sale, implying that the process will require the successful bidder to disclose his identity, I believe automatically antagonised majority (if not all) users here.
For some reason, most of the users on this forum get very upset if something forces them to reveal their identity. I don't know, perhaps most of the users are not proud of themselves and that's the reason they like hiding behind a pseudonym. But these same users are also very happy to reveal their identity when purchasing large ticket items with BTC, as long as the trade does not happen on this forum but on a different site. The mind boggles.
@ bitcoin_bob, don't despair, I see your efforts as genuine and sincere, and I wish you, at the end, manage to sell your girlfriend's house for BTC, I agree that will make a good precedent and help the Bitcoin cause.
But that's not going to happen here, on this forum - if the trolls do not pollute your thread and reduce it to a series of ignored users' posts, the resident idiots will keep sabotaging your auctions until they see you give up.
My advise would be to list the house on e-Bay (UK is the most logical choice), state that you would accept Bitcoin, and then post a link to the e-bay auction on this forum for discussions - but be prepared to ignore many of the idiots that will come and chirp-in and soil your discussion thread, as this is what they do for fun.
Use your favorite spreadsheet application
Quote
How many BTC will be mined in 24 hrs?
BTC = (H x B / D) x (60 x 60 x 24 x 65535 x 10^6 / 2^48)
where H = your hash rate (Mh/s), B = block reward (BTC), D = difficulty
BTC = (H x B / D) x (60 x 60 x 24 x 65535 x 10^6 / 2^48)
where H = your hash rate (Mh/s), B = block reward (BTC), D = difficulty
Quote
How to calculate the difficulty?
D = H / 7158388.055
where H = network hash rate (Mh/s), D = difficulty
D = H / 7158388.055
where H = network hash rate (Mh/s), D = difficulty
Physical goods is the least of Africas problems. Your clean water will literally drown in the sand until the leadership problem is solved.
"Ngango Cho'kto, 4 years, would like to eat. Won't you help? Your dollar can feed him for a year." Sounds oh so easy and compelling. Couldn't be further from the truth though. If it's just to clear your conscience, go right ahead. But don't misguide yourself into thinking that will solve anything or help anyone.
"Ngango Cho'kto, 4 years, would like to eat. Won't you help? Your dollar can feed him for a year." Sounds oh so easy and compelling. Couldn't be further from the truth though. If it's just to clear your conscience, go right ahead. But don't misguide yourself into thinking that will solve anything or help anyone.
^^^ This!
OP, if you have NGO experience, you should know that raising the funding is never a major problem, getting someone to develop the software and configure the hardware needed is also relatively easy, but getting the funds distributed to their intended target is an impossible task in Africa.
Years ago, when the CPU mining was still feasible, I designed this cute Solar Miner. 125Wp panel + 3A MPPT + 1kWh lithium battery + 15W TDP Mobo + GPRS dongle = +/- $350, earning some $100-$150 per month in Bitcoins. I also had a solution for the Bitcoin to Cash conversion, easy and low-cost, the African way.
But what I could not solve is the comfort the NGOs needed in order to get involved with this. At the end, I had to abandon the idea, as I find it was not feasible, not in Africa.
After reading this OP I went and re-run the figures to see if my contraption will be feasible mining Litecoin today. And it sure was! Also, for little bit more, one could configure it to use BFL's 5GHs Miner instead of the Mobo, making this even more profitable that it was intended to be in the first place.
But I am still convinced that although technically one can create a mining solution for Africa, one should not do because is never worth it - at the end this will see everyone involved wasting their time and money while the local leaders enriching themselves again and Ngango Cho'kto, the proverbial 4 year old, will get nothing out of this, will probably die of hunger and some exotic diseases!
Mt.Gox is no problem.
Define a new withdrawal method OKPay in your withdrawal section, enter your OK Pay wallet ID, in 24hrs they will verify that you are trying to withdraw into a valid OKPay account and then the OKPay option will appear in the withdrawal section fo ryou to use straight away.
All the normal withdrawal limits apply though - if you are looking to trick the system, its not going to work :-)
Define a new withdrawal method OKPay in your withdrawal section, enter your OK Pay wallet ID, in 24hrs they will verify that you are trying to withdraw into a valid OKPay account and then the OKPay option will appear in the withdrawal section fo ryou to use straight away.
All the normal withdrawal limits apply though - if you are looking to trick the system, its not going to work :-)
I think a lot of people are looking for ways to panic buy right now. The prices are good. Personally I think buying below $100 is a fabulous long term entry point.
another greed commentHey, why don't you read this article?
http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/11/bitcoin/
Maybe then you'll understand what's the big deal with Bitcoin.
in all effort to prevent reading another word i closed my eyes and start clicking randomly to close it
luckily that worked out
now i just gotta clean up my puke
thanks for that shitty article full of shit ass greedy people
It seems you are in the wrong place my friend. You are surrounded by greedy people here, perhaps it would be best for all of us if you start looking for a hangout where greed is frowned upon.
God, I love the first line of the website.
Quote
The International Socialist Organization has branches across the country.
Shouldn't they change their name to The National Socialist?
I see what you did here
This is the issue I struggle with ATM. Realizing that every transaction that goes through Bitpay results in an immediate sell order at whatever the current best bid price is on Mt. Gox will actually help drive the valuation lower. We need more speculators and big investors putting the money up to counterbalance this with an upward trend.
The blindness is bizarre. How can you ignore the fact that the BTC used in the transaction also has to be bought with fiat? In order for the BTC to be sold on Mt. Gox by the merchant, it first has to be bought by the customer (on Mt. Gox perhaps). The two currency transactions balance each other perfectly.
You are not right.
I've never invested a single cent of fiat in Bitocoin, yet I have plenty of them "precious" in my wallet, I've also spend many of them in the past on buying various stuff, mostly computer parts, GPUs, FPGAs and ASICs, FYI I always paid in BTC, admittedly not knowing what the merchant will do with them.
Currently I am contemplating to buy some high-ticket non-Bitcoin related stuff, just waiting for the right moment (i.e. when the markets are more robust, calmer and traders full of confidence), then I will find some time , sit down and make couple of hundred sell orders (to follow the trend).
That's because I care for the economy!
Re: How does a merchant / economy use a currency that jumps from 266 to 105 and back
simple answer: it doesnt.
So , you are telling me that bit coin will be more a vehicle for speculation than a normal currency for a long long time ?
basically. its a fault of its design, theres nothing that can be done.
I disagree.
It is like blaming the commodities for being traded and speculated with.
The Bitcoin is a great thing, yet to find its correct definition, it is used by different people for different purposes.
Today, majority (an the most influential) of the users are short-term speculators. Tomorrow that will change - they will be replaced by the hoarders, futures traders and long-term investors. Eventually, when the price stabilises, we might see more and more people using BTC as currency.
But all that time, it will be the same Bitcoin, just being used by different people for different purpose.
I agree with you.
Today the markets are not large enough to support multiple merchants who's input is in fiat, hence it will be in their interest to sell the newly acquired BTC and withdraw the fiat from the system straight away, in effect damaging the markets.
Currently we are in a situation where the markets are driven by speculation, and the merchants play only remote secondary role to the development of the markets. I personally do not expect this to change for some time, not until broader adoption of the BTC occurs and not only by speculators, but across the spectrum of users.
The OP premise is that by using merchants to buy goods we would be "helping" the Bitcoin economy. I stated that the current economy's nature is not what everyone thinks it is, it has changed dramatically over the last 4 months, hence today, by using merchants to buy goods and pay them in BTC, we would be damaging the economy.
To clarify, I am assuming that helping the economy to grow means driving the price of BTC and the total market cap up, and damaging means driving the price of BTC and the total market cap down.
In retrospect, I see my mistake as emphasising on the potential damage buying goods with BTC could cause to the economy. I should have stated that in today's climate, such damage will be minimal, negligible, irrespective of the good intentions and the efforts of the people to "help" the economy. I also should have stated that if one wants to help the economy, one should have gone and purchased BTC, contribute to the driving the price up, then hold for long period, until the markets stabilised to +/- 0.01% daily fluctuations. That will be the sign to watch for. AT that time the Bitcoin economy will be deemed mature, the short-term speculators would have left long-time ago, and the Bitcoin would have been described as a great store of value, very similar to the precious metals.
That's what I think.
Today the markets are not large enough to support multiple merchants who's input is in fiat, hence it will be in their interest to sell the newly acquired BTC and withdraw the fiat from the system straight away, in effect damaging the markets.
Currently we are in a situation where the markets are driven by speculation, and the merchants play only remote secondary role to the development of the markets. I personally do not expect this to change for some time, not until broader adoption of the BTC occurs and not only by speculators, but across the spectrum of users.
The OP premise is that by using merchants to buy goods we would be "helping" the Bitcoin economy. I stated that the current economy's nature is not what everyone thinks it is, it has changed dramatically over the last 4 months, hence today, by using merchants to buy goods and pay them in BTC, we would be damaging the economy.
To clarify, I am assuming that helping the economy to grow means driving the price of BTC and the total market cap up, and damaging means driving the price of BTC and the total market cap down.
In retrospect, I see my mistake as emphasising on the potential damage buying goods with BTC could cause to the economy. I should have stated that in today's climate, such damage will be minimal, negligible, irrespective of the good intentions and the efforts of the people to "help" the economy. I also should have stated that if one wants to help the economy, one should have gone and purchased BTC, contribute to the driving the price up, then hold for long period, until the markets stabilised to +/- 0.01% daily fluctuations. That will be the sign to watch for. AT that time the Bitcoin economy will be deemed mature, the short-term speculators would have left long-time ago, and the Bitcoin would have been described as a great store of value, very similar to the precious metals.
That's what I think.
...
I stop feeding the troll now.
I stop feeding the troll now.
Sure, everyone is entitled to his opinion, irrespective how wrong it is.
As I always say - show some respect to the trolls, stop feeding them with rubbish!
I am sorry, I though you knew how the markets work...
I apologise - I've assumed wrongly!
/end sarcasm
In my example above, I am not buying Bitcoins, it just happened that I have 125,000 of them, itching my hand to spend and "help" the economy.
And yes, I am pretty certain of my estimate that creating a instant sell order for BTC125,000 will bring down the price +/- 30%, probably over few days.
I apologise - I've assumed wrongly!
/end sarcasm
In my example above, I am not buying Bitcoins, it just happened that I have 125,000 of them, itching my hand to spend and "help" the economy.
And yes, I am pretty certain of my estimate that creating a instant sell order for BTC125,000 will bring down the price +/- 30%, probably over few days.
Then why did you disagree to my example where I talked about buying BTC to spend them?
I am sorry, I though you could read...
I apologise - I've assumed wrongly!
/end sarcasm
,
Still that's a borderline case infolding over 1% of all coins in existence.
If I would exchange 1% of all in existence for $ this would have the same effect on the Value of the (not as extreme though, but only due to a grater liquidity).
Are you saying I should not buy things from the US for my s to not crash the ?
I struggle to follow your logic here...we are obviously on a different page.
When we analyse a market, we do not look into total coins in existence, we are only interested in the coins in circulation, i.e. traded on that market. That's because the coins in circulation effect the market. Also, there are separate markets, $ is a separate market, is a separate market, then those fiats traded in different exchanges are also different markets.
In my example, I was referring to one particular market - USD@MtGox. Also in my example, as soon the merchant (or the hypothetical seller of goods I used in my example) accepts the BTC, he would go to a market of his own choice and sell the BTC for fiat, as his input costs would be in fiat. And that's what would cause the price at that particular market to tank, as I mentioned previously, on my estimate, to around 30%.
And that I see cannot be possibly good for the economy, it will upset a lot of bullish investors, it may even cause loss in confidence in the prevailing trend, possibly cause panic sell, from there on it is everyone's guess what will happened to Bitcoin.
I am sorry, I though you knew how the markets work...
I apologise - I've assumed wrongly!
/end sarcasm
In my example above, I am not buying Bitcoins, it just happened that I have 125,000 of them, itching my hand to spend and "help" the economy.
And yes, I am pretty certain of my estimate that creating a instant sell order for BTC125,000 will bring down the price +/- 30%, probably over few days.
I apologise - I've assumed wrongly!
/end sarcasm
In my example above, I am not buying Bitcoins, it just happened that I have 125,000 of them, itching my hand to spend and "help" the economy.
And yes, I am pretty certain of my estimate that creating a instant sell order for BTC125,000 will bring down the price +/- 30%, probably over few days.
This is exactly what I'm trying to tell people since over a year.
It's not bad if you want to save your coins, just when you want to buy something anyway, look if you can get it for BTC, when you can convert the fiat you wanted to spend anyway to BTC and buy you product for BTC. It's one extra step, but this way you help Bitcoin grow step by step.
It's not bad if you want to save your coins, just when you want to buy something anyway, look if you can get it for BTC, when you can convert the fiat you wanted to spend anyway to BTC and buy you product for BTC. It's one extra step, but this way you help Bitcoin grow step by step.
I disagree.
My example - in light of the increase of Bitcoin price, I can now buy myself a business jet. I want to "help" the Bitcoin economy, so I offer Boeing to pay BTC. They then go to Gox, open an account, wait for a month or more to get verified. In the mean time, I pay them BTC 125,000 and take the jet. Eventually, some months later, Boeing now able to withdraw fiat, dumps the BTC to the market, crashing it some 10-30% (my estimate) getting less fiat to what it was worth when they accepted my BTC payment. I can just imagine the conservative financial director there having a cup of tea with the chairman of the board, saying; "you know what, I thought it was a great idea at the time".
Not going to happen!
(Disclaimer - yes, I am hoarding ATM.)
I realized something last night. I was looking at buying some electronics at newegg, so I was pricing those out. Then I realized I could get the same thing and, comparing prices, for virtually the same dollar value equivalent from bitcoinstore.com. But, I didn't want to part with my precious bitcoins!
So, instead, I took the money earmarked for the purchase and converted it to bitcoin. I am still evaluating which model of item I want, so in the meantime my value of those BTC has gone up in $. However, I know I will purchase within a day or two.
In the end, I bought more BTC, contributed to the economy and supported a BTC-only merchant. And worst case, I spent the money I was going to spend anyways.
If you are not holding the spending coins for any period of time, the fluctuations in price aren't that big a deal. However, using them strengthens the economy, and in the current climate, I wind up saving a few $$ in the end. Good for everyone!
I see number of flaws in your logic.
Sure, your view is very popular, shared by many on this forum, but let's see if it is true.
Today the Bitcoin economy (market cap, price) is mostly driven by speculation.
Two years ago, there were many discussions going to encourage the increase of the Bitcoin's utility value. That's the reason there was an increase in new merchants and development of merchant tools/payment gateways. No one thought at the time that in the future Bitcoin will become the best speculative market out there.
But in January 2013 all that changed - after an explosive exposure of Bitcoin in the media, hoards of opportunistic "investors" came to Bitcoin with one single intention - short term gain. That overtook the combined miner's and merchants drive that was prevalent at the time, instantly transformed the nature of Bitcoin. Not that most on this forum noticed, nor understood.
Going forward, we all await the imminent arrival of a a new driving force - the upset, but looking good with their new hair-do ex Cypriots (add to them the Spaniards, Italians, Lichtensteinians, Maltese etc) - who are queuing on the Gox to get their moneys in, with slightly different intentions though - (1) to re-gain their fiat losses, and (2) perhaps gain a point or thousand points in their newly discovered store of value.
The Bitcoin will never be the same again.
Good for everyone!
Re: BTC-E.com exchange Bitcoin, Litecoin, Namecoin <-> USD\BTC (fee 0.2%)
That's not true!
@ btc-e.com
You say that BTC withdrawals attract fixed 0.01 BTC fee - but I know that's not true!
I just withdrew some BTC - I have requested withdrawal of 0.161 BTC, your website indicated that I will receive 0.16 BTC, but you actually sent me 0.1551 BTC
In addition to lying, you are also stealing from me!
Explain!
@ btc-e.com
You say that BTC withdrawals attract fixed 0.01 BTC fee - but I know that's not true!
I just withdrew some BTC - I have requested withdrawal of 0.161 BTC, your website indicated that I will receive 0.16 BTC, but you actually sent me 0.1551 BTC
In addition to lying, you are also stealing from me!
Explain!
Very original thought...
I think in the near future (10-50 years) ASICs at 10nm-1nm will be energy efficient enough.
Also, I do not think that Bitcoin requires infinitely increasing number of nodes to function, only needs large number of nodes with sufficient hashing power to prevent someone from mounting a 51% attack.
The currently established model, having few large pools containing majority of the hashing power, I think will be an adequate match to the network's growth challenge to quite a degree.
I think in the near future (10-50 years) ASICs at 10nm-1nm will be energy efficient enough.
Also, I do not think that Bitcoin requires infinitely increasing number of nodes to function, only needs large number of nodes with sufficient hashing power to prevent someone from mounting a 51% attack.
The currently established model, having few large pools containing majority of the hashing power, I think will be an adequate match to the network's growth challenge to quite a degree.
Mere possession can be outlawed, but those laws can never be successfully enforced.
Example: firearms - there are laws all over the world regulating the possession of firearms, and those laws are utterly ineffective in their attempt of preventing the illegal firearm possession. Those laws are only effective if applied to the legal and dully registered firearm owners - which ironically are the only ones who comply with those laws.
Same with Bitcoin - if the governments outlaw the Bitcoin, the only Bitcoins that could be (easily) confiscated will be the ones deposited with legally compliant institutions - the ones stored in a private wallet could never be effectively confiscated.
Time to post the Bitcoin version of a "MOLON LAVE" poster, I suppose. :-)
Example: firearms - there are laws all over the world regulating the possession of firearms, and those laws are utterly ineffective in their attempt of preventing the illegal firearm possession. Those laws are only effective if applied to the legal and dully registered firearm owners - which ironically are the only ones who comply with those laws.
Same with Bitcoin - if the governments outlaw the Bitcoin, the only Bitcoins that could be (easily) confiscated will be the ones deposited with legally compliant institutions - the ones stored in a private wallet could never be effectively confiscated.
Time to post the Bitcoin version of a "MOLON LAVE" poster, I suppose. :-)