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Showing 8 of 8 results by iamnothere12
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Board Legal
Re: selling bitcoin for cash; FINCEN regulations
by
iamnothere12
on 01/02/2021, 04:20:49 UTC
in the USA, you're allowed to sell bitcoins for cash without worrying about money transmission laws (AML/KYC)---up until the point that you are considered "a business":

Quote
"'As a business' is the qualifier that triggers the money transmission laws," Santori said over the phone. "If you come to me and ask to buy $100 worth of bitcoin and I sell that to you, in no state is that sole activity considered to be money transmission. It must occur in a sufficient frequency and volume and you have to accept all comers. It's a fact-based test."
https://www.vice.com/en/article/j5qa7y/people-keep-getting-charged-with-a-crime-for-selling-bitcoin

does anyone know what frequency and volume thresholds might trigger FINCEN registration and reporting requirements? have there been any precedents set in the last few years? FINCEN's guidance is pretty vague.

take this case from 2017: https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdmo/pr/nixa-man-pleads-guilty-illegal-bitcoin-exchange

Quote
By pleading guilty today, Klein admitted that he represented himself on the Internet to be a bitcoin exchanger. However, Klein was not a licensed money transmitter with the state of Missouri or with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, as required by federal and state law.

An undercover federal agent responded to an online advertisement posted by Klein. Klein told the undercover agent that his rate included a 10 percent commission “for an in-person $1,000 cash exchange.”

Between Feb. 6, 2015, and July 27, 2016, Klein, acting with another, met with two undercover federal agents on numerous occasions to exchange bitcoin for cash. Today’s plea agreement cites five separate transactions in which money (ranging from $1,000 to $15,000) was exchanged in person for an electronic transfer of bitcoin.

5 transactions over 1.5 years (for amounts as small as $1k) doesn't seem like very much. the press release highlights the fact that he advertised/represented himself as an exchanger---is that the more significant part?

going back to the quote from marco santori above, he says "you have to accept all comers". does that imply that if you are only contacting advertisers and not advertising yourself, and not representing yourself as an exchanger, that you won't be construed as a business?

I have taken the time to read some federal appellate cases on this matter and can tell you there is no exact number that qualifies as a business but most of the appellate decisions in the various circuit do state that the purpose of a business is to turn a profit (if it in fact does or does not is not pertinent) therefore charging a few for the service will always qualify as a business.  The cases also specifically say that single transactions can never qualify.  So if you are doing infrequent transactions and not charging a fee then you could never be convicted of 18 USC 1960 - the unlicensed MSB statute.
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: cipher trace and chipmixer/wasabi question
by
iamnothere12
on 01/02/2021, 01:12:32 UTC

Quote
Yes.

ChipMixer chip creation and Wasabi CoinJoin are distinct and easy to recognize.
If you spot Wasabi CoinJoin - you know that [simplified] owner of one of inputs is owner of one of outputs.
If you spot ChipMixer chip creation - you know that owner of one of inputs is owner of some of chips - created in the past or in the future.

Guess it does not get any better then hearing from the big man himself.

Thanks
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: Taint Question
by
iamnothere12
on 31/01/2021, 16:57:47 UTC

Quote

I'm not a lawyer or an expert, but I think my statement explains why funds held by Silk Road were confiscated and not returned to their owners. In the U.S., your property can be confiscated if it is involved in crime whether you are involved in the crime or not. Maybe banks are a special case and maybe not, or maybe it would be political suicide to confiscate the assets of a bank so it isn't done.

The United States successfully convinced a federal judge that the Silk Road bitcoins are traceable to criminal activity, simply through the bitcoins’ presence on a site associated with the transacting of illegal goods.

What the government did there is a civil forfeiture.  In a civil forfeiture the "defendant" is the property - i.e. the bitcoins.  The government only needs probable cause to execute the seizure of the bitcoins.  Then any person who wants to make a claim against the coins must file as an interested party.  I do not know, but seriously doubt, anyone filed as an interested party in an effort to get their coins back.  Those coins seized were ones seized ON silk road as opposed to ones that had already left the market place.  Civil forfeiture has a much lesser burden.  Probable cause to seize but the the burden is on the government to show by preponderance of the evidence the funds are connected to criminal activity should someone claim an interest in the property.  However most of the time no one claims an interest and as in that case the government just wins by default.
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Topic OP
cipher trace and chipmixer question
by
iamnothere12
on 31/01/2021, 14:33:39 UTC
I cam across this article many of you may have already read:
https://ciphertrace.com/twitter-hack-update-blockchain-analysis-helps-identify-twitter-hackers/

It states at the bottom that "Through proprietary clustering algorithms, Cipher Trace is easily able to identify these mixing services", where it is talking about the hackers using various mixing services.  Cipher Trace shows various diagrams, which are not clear to me but are these diagrams showing the flow of funds through the mixing service or is Cipher Trace merely saying they lost the funds after they hit the mixing service?
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: Taint Question
by
iamnothere12
on 30/01/2021, 21:26:54 UTC
Quote
Every centralized exchange will have something buried in their Terms of Service saying that if you trigger some unspecified automatic algorithm which they will never provide any details of, then your account will be frozen/locked/suspended pending review and/or you handing over ridiculous amounts of private information. By signing up to the exchange, you signal your acceptance of these terms, and grant the exchange the ability to do whatever they like to you, your account, and your coins.

Forgot about the TOS.  I will have to go read one at a major exchange and see what is buried within it.
Thank you
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: Taint Question
by
iamnothere12
on 30/01/2021, 20:26:45 UTC
If the marketplace is committing a crime, then any money or property held or managed by the marketplace would be involved in the crime. While you might not have transacted directly with the marketplace, the bitcoins you received came from it.

One interesting bit of complexity comes from the fact that once a UTXO is spent, the bitcoins in it can no longer be distinguished from other bitcoins. That is why "taint" is always a percentage. This is similar to the problem of identifying tainted money in a bank account. However, while money is legally fungible (in the U.S.), bitcoins are not, and so they must be treated differently. I look forward to seeing how laws are applied and misapplied to this situation.

Not sure I would fully agree with that statement but respect your thoughts. At least in the United States there is two primary paths the government can take to forfeit funds. One being a criminal forfeiture meaning you would have had to been convicted of a crime and purchasing bitcoins on a darknet is not criminal under any statute.  The second is a civil forfeiture which requires that the property (seized funds) is directly "traceable" to a "specified unlawful activity". There is a list of those activities in the statutes but again those activities are crimes.

Your analysis would then say if a bank was committing a crime your funds being held at that bank can now be forfeited.
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Re: Taint Question
by
iamnothere12
on 30/01/2021, 19:40:04 UTC
Am I correct that this is what they solely base the taint on when it comes to coins surrounding dark net marketplaces?
No one is going to be able to say for sure unless they work for one of these blockchain analysis companies and are familiar with their various algorithms, analyses, and outcomes. What we do know is that some exchanges and blockchain analysis companies label coins as "tainted" for completely trivial reasons. Some say that any coins which have been mixed are tainted. Some say that any coins which have been coinjoined are tainted. Some say that any coins which have come from casinos, or sportsbooks, or darknet markets, etc., are tainted.

As you say, if you trace any bitcoin back far enough, then chances are it has been involved in some kind of activity which would be deemed as "tainted". But again, we don't know how far back these companies look. What if the bitcoin came from a darknet market 10 transactions ago? What about 100? What about 1000? Is it still tainted? What if it has been combined with some "clean" bitcoin in a transaction? Are all the outputs of that transaction now tainted? Or perhaps they are only 50% tainted? What if those outputs and combined again? These analyses are completely arbitrary, and in many cases, completely meaningless.

Often the best answer to a question like this is a practical one - which services or exchange are you trying to use which is passing arbitrary judgement about the "taintedness" of your bitcoin? Can you transition to a different one?



I think this is a well written reply so thank you.  The probably I see from reading forums is that exchanges have a pattern of locking accounts at time of withdrawal and not being transparent about concerns at time of deposit.

I am no legal expert but for the sake of argument even if your bitcoin was directly from illegal activity these exchanges are not law enforcement.  What legal authority would they have to ever hold someone's funds demanding information as to the source if they are insinuating coins are tainted? AML requires them to collect information but I see no where that authorizes legal authority to withhold funds you deposited until they come to some arbitrary level of satisfaction as to the source of said funds.  As long as they have your identity information then pass it to law enforcement if you think something is criminal but process the withdrawal no the less.

Even if someone was committing tax evasion then they should report it but where does there legal authority arise from to act on these analytics firm taint tools to deny withdrawals..
Post
Topic
Board Bitcoin Discussion
Merits 5 from 3 users
Topic OP
Tain Question
by
iamnothere12
on 30/01/2021, 18:35:51 UTC
⭐ Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2) ,DdmrDdmr (2) ,LeGaulois (1)
So new user but long time reader and I want someone to explain how these analytics firms are alleging that coins may be tainted solely based on being connected to a dark net marketplace? The fact is in the early days of dark net marketplaces when few bitcoin exchanges existed (aside from MtGox) people routinely bought bitcoins on dark nets using money pack cards.  The purchaser of the bitcoins committed no crimes as he is not considered an unlicensed money transmitter, while the seller is consider one. 

People also used dark net marketplaces as mixers themselves transferring coins onto them and then off again.

Under these two scenarios the coins are not involved in criminal activity, however, it seems these analysis firms claim they are criminal solely because they have some connection to an output from a marketplace.  Am I correct that this is what they solely base the taint on when it comes to coins surrounding dark net marketplaces?