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Re: [12000 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 07/06/2013, 12:08:35 UTC
Does anyone have, the "lower reward" syndrome?  Huh
After every round i got much lesser reward than usual... I am beginning to panic!
These are usually around 0.0025, but now
18452    2013-06-07 10:39:27    0:14:40    2847270    229    0.00187782    240218    25.28180000    98 confirmations left
18451    2013-06-07 10:24:47    0:36:58    7112700    622    0.00193577    240216    25.46560009    96 confirmations left
18450    2013-06-07 09:47:49    1:31:11    17439636    1328    0.00158006    240210    25.31299996    90 confirmations left

It's not hard to work out.

The overall bitcoin network hash rate is increasing rapidly whereas your own mining hash rate remains the same. So you will get less unless you increase your own personal hash rate in line with the overall bitcoin network hash rate.


and, in short, you have to do this FOREVER. thus, don't speak of a desired hashrate goal, but percentage of total network. personally i'm hoping to eventually maintain .1% of the whole.

So, with ~1GHs, that I have, I can expect to find the block - never, and constantly decreasing reward from mining? Right?  Cry

Well, except for the part where the block is found faster so as your payments shrink, they come in faster. You have to look at the whole thing, not just part of it
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 04/06/2013, 22:52:01 UTC
3+ weeks ago my reward per block were 0.0014 - 0.0016 per block
1 week ago it was ~0.0011 - 0.0012

now it gets as low as 0.0008 per block

7day moving average has gone from 0.25 to 0.21 and 0.18

Is it difficulty or total hashrate? my work utility has gone from 7.8 to 7.2


If rewards are going down so quickly how are little miners like me supposed to go on?

I knew it was expected, but i hoped for 2x slower decline than this Sad

Or my whining is wrong?


fairly sure its the difficulty (increases with total network hashrate), with yet another change coming soon. Its also a shame that human greed led to the pointless creation of ASIC's for mining, it monopolises Bitcoin to the few who have a lot of money the same way banks have with fiat currency.
difficulty increasing would make each block take longer, but wouldn't change the fact that each block is 25 BTC, so the size of your payouts would remain about the same. Network hashrate increasing wihtout your personal hashrate increasing would lower the percentage of work you have contributed, so hashes would happen faster overall, but your own payout would be reduced. As difficulty rises, blocks take longer, and over time more asics/fpgas are introduced to the pool, making gpu mining less lucrative. You have to determine for yourself whether this is right for you
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 04/06/2013, 09:20:46 UTC
I'm noticing a significant fluctuation in shorter blocks. On the order of ~30% smaller rewards only on shorter blocks, but not all of them. I don't know if these are miscalculations or if people are getting lucky with some sort of pool hopping guesswork

This would be normal if your hash rate is rather low (less than 100-200MH/s). At about 1GH the variation for me is usually less than 10% (short or bonus).

In essence - it has to do with the way this pool pays rewards - the reward is based on the score, and score decreases exponentially with older shares. If you manage to submit shares in the last second when the block is found - your score will be the highest (for those shares) and you may get extra few %, and vice versa - if your last share is over a minute older when the block is found - that share would bring you a lower %.
I understand how the pool calculates rewards, but since I'm hashing along at ~ 700MH/s, I would assume there'd be a smaller variance than 30% over the course of 45 min to 2 hours. the 4 hour blocks match up with the average of 1-2 hour blocks, excluding these outliers but if others aren't seeing them, it must be something on my end
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 04/06/2013, 05:11:24 UTC
I'm noticing a significant fluctuation in shorter blocks. On the order of ~30% smaller rewards only on shorter blocks, but not all of them. I don't know if these are miscalculations or if people are getting lucky with some sort of pool hopping guesswork
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 31/05/2013, 16:22:01 UTC
Tried flushing the DNS cache, still can't connect to stratum, stratum2, or stratum3. I'm in Austin. I don't have a backup pool, and I have no idea how to choose one. I mean, I understand how to actually set one up, but I'm not sure how to decide on one that's not too big (btcguild) or too small (is there such a thing?)
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 31/05/2013, 14:44:23 UTC
having issues connecting.  Tried the built in url on guiminer, and I also tried stratum2.bitcoin.cz:3333 and stratum3.bitcoin.cz:3333 to no avail. Connection is just not happening, something about IO errors
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 24/05/2013, 18:25:22 UTC
Well, like I said a couple pages ago. I did buy this 7970 with bitcoin mining in mind, but at the end of the day, I'm not doing it to try to make money off of it, the card cost too much for that. I'm doing it because it's a curiosity, and the primary purpose of my machine is to max out all the games I play.
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 24/05/2013, 17:22:59 UTC
I wish I could improve my connection to pool somehow. On short-medium rounds I get adequate rewards, but on very very short ones, which should give that most "saisfactory feeling" it usually sucks for me. (18191     0:00:47    106938    2    0.00045790 = only 2 shares instead of 6-9).

In all other cases, and especially long rounds -  my speed / pool speed *25 reward seems fine to me.

Also - does that hopping thing still exist? Or it's a problem of the past?
Pool hopping exists, but it's a gamble on slush. You would have to be trying to predict how much longer the block will take and get yourself in long enough before the end to get a sufficiently high score, and you would need to be operating under the assumption that whichever pool you hop from isn't going to have a short block just as you hopped out or you just jumped away from a nice short block. I'm content staying in one place, letting my pc mine away whenever I'm not playing games, although I'm off all day today and all these short blocks are making me not want to start up a game lol
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 24/05/2013, 16:55:47 UTC

So close though!!!  I am just being sarcastic.

 I rather get the correct payment for block 237575 and also paid for block 237574. and waiting. tap tap tap

edit...

Gotta love the 400+gh/s increase near the "end" of these long rounds. like I said the big boy greed
[/quote]
yeah, on a string of 4+ hour blocks, pool hash rate is around 9.2 TH/s, I've seen it drop to the 8s a couple of times in the past month, aside from when the ddos stuff was happening. String up some single digit or 2 digit minute blocks back to back and what do you know? Our pool hashing rate is 10.6 TH/s
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 24/05/2013, 01:56:32 UTC
Hm, today's luck has been around 144% , does this mean difficulty is going to rise pretty high next adjustment?

We had a lucky day today, earlier this week we had a couple of unlucky days as well. It all balances out. You can't use a single day or even a single week as a basis for expectations of how the future will pan out, you need to look at a much larger sample size. Compare all of today on all of the large pools for example, then average the data from all of those pools for a month. Our good luck benefited us today, but it's just a small ripple in the ocean when you start looking at the big picture
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 23/05/2013, 19:02:01 UTC
5850 never uses only 80 to 85W. It uses 150W at stock and 165 to 191W at 300. Look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

I have 6 of those and I have checked with the kill-a-watt and I can assure you that this is exactly how much power they use.

The rig that sits right next to me at the moment has two quad-core xeons, a bunch of hard drives and 3 of those cards. With all mining it currently uses 460-465W. When I stop the mining it uses 210-220W. One of the other rigs can barely run Solitaire but idles at 45W and goes to 215-220W during mining with two cards.

Oh yeah - and if you trust that page the 5850 should be able to do >400MH/sec. That's a BS - unless you water-cool it and waaaay overclock it. I've undervoltaged them (0.950V), underclocked the memory (500MHz) and overclocked them a bit (775MHz) and they do exactly 305MH/s and are perfectly stable and cool at 65-68C. I guess I could squeeze out another 30-50MH but I have to overvoltage them which makes even more heat and consumes more power - what I gain in megahashes I'll pay in kilowatts.
Well my dose 395 stable but with 1 or 2 HW errors in 24 hours, 388 without errors and 410 for short time. And you need to buy a batter kill-a-wat or you didn't count in idle power.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5850/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5850-overview.aspx#2

EDIT: The only modification I made is Arctic silver thermal paste.

EDIT2: Mem @75 Core @ 948(395)942(388)970(410) stock voltage.

He said he undervolted his cards. I kind of wonder how much power I'm drawing from the wall.  I would assume it's in the mid to high 400 range, but I'm overclocked and over volted
I wish people would stop trying to take into account the resale value of their video cards when figuring return on investment. by the time that you get around to selling them, technology will have progressed to point where they will be obsolete, or the market will be so glutted that nobody will want them.

Case in point. i planned on building a mining rig using one of two motherboards i have laying around unused. Bought the video card and then  looked at the motherboards.... um... AGP. ack. so now the rig will have a new motherboard and CPU as well, and a $400 investment turned into a $750 investment. fortunately, for me this is a hobby so set backs like this aren't too upsetting.

a question on the MB though. it has 3 PCI-e slots, one is x16, one is x4 and one is x1. Can all 3 be used for video cards? will performance be affected? i'm not sure what the numbers mean.
Yeah, I don't know too many gamers that would be interested in 5xxx series cards now, since 7xxx cover the entire spectrum of price/performance and 9xxx series are due by the end of the year.

As for the slots, the x1 slot is shorter than the other slots so you'd need a workaround for that with a riser or an extender or something
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Topic OP
Trying to be prudent with bitcoin
by
kanta
on 23/05/2013, 14:11:11 UTC
I'm not invested heavily into bitcoin, as it's just a curiosity for me, but I do want to maintain a small investment in it. To that end, I am just about to get my first whole btc, and although I am thinking of buying something with it, that would just instantly spend the btc that I have, so I wouldn't have any investment in it any longer. Is it prudent to- for example: decide on a btc purchase within the amount of BTC that I have, and then before buying whatever it is that catches my fancy, buy that many BTC so I still have my original BTC?
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 23/05/2013, 14:05:52 UTC
Anyone have experiences with those?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195540.60

There are other group buys but I'm looking at this one since it is EU and relay low price.

Hmm...

Presently at Slush I get approx. 0.002BTC@~600MH/s at each block (averaged). We find around 16-18 blocks per day.
Assuming I were to pay 2.2BTC for this usb 'block eruptor' I would be looking at:

2.2 / 0.001 / 17 = 130 days to break-even, assuming network difficulty remains as-is, which it WILL NOT.

Because estimates of rate of difficulty increase vary wildly I hesitate to _speculate_ further, but it seems to me that there is a possibility this buy will not pay for itself in a reasonable time frame.


There are two more things to consider - let me use some examples:
- I have 5850 cards which use about 80-85W to produce roughly 300MH (or say it the same as that USB key). Here is the USB key advantage - it uses 0.5W.
- I got my cards at $120-150 each. Some are on dedicated mining rigs, some are used for gaming. At the end of the day I can sell those and recoup some of my investment.

My observations about payout are similar to mrm0's - with one rig at 900MH/s my average is about B 0.035-0.04/day (depending on luck). Or it will pay itself off in about 160-200 days (at current difficulty levels).
A GPU card (priced let's say 1.1BTC at current levels) making the same 300MH/sec minus price of electricity (2KW@$0.15=$0.3 or B0.0025) will bring you B 0.01/day or given the same presumptions will pay itself off in 100 days.
So, after the same 200 days each of those cards will pay itself and bring me about $120-150 profit + I can sell the cards for let's say $75 = total profit $200/card.

I'm over-simplifying it but you get the idea.

Bottom line is - if you're just now entering the mining world it is probably not worth the money as there are better alternatives.

EDIT: See this site for calculating the break-even duration: https://bitclockers.com/calc
I agree. I just got into mining, and I even upgraded the GPU in my PC to a 7970 with the intent of mining faster than my GTX 670 could do. However, I didn't buy the card (nor assemble the computer) for the sole purpose of mining, and at the end of the day, I have a badass gaming rig that I can play any game maxed out, which is why I built my rig in the first place. I'm not worried about making my investment back, so long as I don't spend more on electricity than I make mining, which I am currently doing pretty good at (700 MH/s).  That and the 7970 came with 3 games that I had really been wanting to play.
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 19/05/2013, 14:24:57 UTC
The CDF% will go up more and more slowly as more time passes. We had an 11 hour block the other day, no one knows exactly how long a block will take, that's part of the luck that everyone talks about
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 11:11:55 UTC
Just give the pool some time to sort it out. Round 18082 is fixed already and was also showing none for me. Now:

Code:
18082 2013-05-18 07:45:28 4:03:45 33732105 2021 0.00148243

Sit back, relax...  Smiley

You're right, 18082 is fixed for me as well, and I'm certain that any other anomalies will be sorted out in time.
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 10:41:48 UTC
Hmm, more weirdness.  Account page says 724 MH/s, constant shares going out (last update at 0) every time I look, yet instead of the normal 0.0017-0.002 that I get per block, it's 0.00000082. I'm sure it'll be taken care of, but it's weird that these problems have been cropping up over the recent past and not before
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 09:22:33 UTC
4:03:45    33732253    none    none    none
wtf?

I'm seeing the same thing, and I haven't turned off my computer tonight at all. The "my account" page has me constantly submitting shares, so I'm not sure what's up with that. Hopefully it gets corrected at some point, 4 hours and all
Here we go again (sigh).  All my miners were happily hashing away at full bore in this long round.  The rounds before it and the next one coming up (if rewarded correctly) would attest to that fact.

Same here :
18082    2013-05-18 07:45:28    4:03:45    33732253    none    none    none    236720    25.24790000    87 confirmations left

Hopefully it will get corrected. Also - at around 3hrs into the round my score got reset - it was almost 0 at 3:15 and by 3:45 it was recovering...
I wonder about the score resetting thing, isn't that part of the weighting system to counter pool hopping?  I notice all the time, my score will drop from the millions to nothing and then begin climbing back up
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 09:17:39 UTC
I believe this is the workaround (pics and all in there to make it easy)

http://bitclockers.com/forums/index.php?topic=7.0
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 08:35:49 UTC
4:03:45    33732253    none    none    none
wtf?

I'm seeing the same thing, and I haven't turned off my computer tonight at all. The "my account" page has me constantly submitting shares, so I'm not sure what's up with that. Hopefully it gets corrected at some point, 4 hours and all
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Re: [8500 GH/s] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + UserDiff; ASIC tested
by
kanta
on 18/05/2013, 05:17:24 UTC
2 x Powercolor Radeon 7970 mounted in a CoolerMaster HAF 925 case with extra 120mm fans inside. 2 for push-pull CPU radiator and 2 blowing on the video card stack from the side. Don't know if an Accelero cooler would perform a great deal better, since the stock ones seem pretty well designed. I may remount the stock ones though. I work at a precision optical manufacturing company and I can use the lapping wheel to grind flat the contact surface to within microns. Could even polish it to within a quarter of a red photon, but I think that would be waste of time, as the thermal paste layer is never close to that thin, and the mirror surface might actually do a good job of reflecting thermal infrared back at the chip. Does anyone here have any experience with diluting silicone based heatsink compound with silicone lubricant or other liquid to reduce viscosity and drastically thin-out the layer? I once did this with GPU heatsink on my Nvidia GTX 570. I got it so well contacted, that you could lift and swing the thing from the bond with no movement. Unfortunately, I forgot to reinstall the aluminum mounting frame before the heatsink, so I had to take it back apart, and the next time around I didn't dilute the compound. So no results to compare.

In your case, the accelero coolers would not be ideal due to the way that they cool.  They exhaust the hot air out through all directions except the face of the card where the fans suck air in and of course the PCB which is solid, but all sides and the rear are exhausting air, which would cause hot air from each card to be pulled in as cooling air, so it's not a good solution.  The 925 is a decent case for gaming, but for your application, it doesn't move enough air.  You could either get water cooling blocks for your 7970s, which would be pretty expensive, but would work nicely, or you could run an open computer, no case, but you'd end up having to clean the computer components a lot more often than with the case in place. Remounting the stock heat sinks would be ideal because it's much lower cost than water cooling and would still allow you to use your case.

I would recommend you clean off all of the existing thermal compound and examine the surface of the heat sink and where it mounts on your GPU/VRMs to ensure they are nice and flat, with no irregularities.  Once you have verified this and made both sides of the mating surfaces nice and clean with some IPA (isopropyl alcohol), then apply a nice small amount of high quality TIM to the heat spreaders on the GPU and VRMs and place the heat sinks back on.  If you want to be doubly sure, remove the heatsink again and look at the TIM, it should be devoid of any bubbles or clean areas (everything should ideally have a thin layer of TIM on it, little hills or ridges are normal). Clean it off again, as the removal will create irregularities in the TIM (little hills or ridges) and reapply the same amount if it was good, and reattach the heatsink, replace the shroud, and button everything back up.

I highly recommend a high quality TIM like the noctua NT-H1 that comes with the NH-D14 coolers, although you can buy it seperately.  People like Arctic Silver AS5, but it doesn't perform as well as several other TIMs, although the overall difference between best and average is only 4 or 5 degrees in the last comparison I read, so if AS5 is the only stuff you can get at a local shop, it's fine.  Poor application or too much TIM will make a much bigger difference than which brand you choose.  Another factor is cleaning the heat sinks and case to ensure all the airflow is as unrestricted as possible.

As for your performance, it really makes me wish I had a second card, but I'd probably run into heat issues.  I'm running mine at 1300 mV, 1230 MHz on the core clock, 1600 on the memory clock 72C 24/7.  Never crashes during mining, and I only turn off the miner while I'm gaming (primary purpose of my rig).  Hash rate bounces between 715 MH/s and 694 MH/s depending on what else I'm doing, I'd love to nearly double that, but not at the cost of a second 460 dollar card and the possibility of having to ramp them down significantly due to the heat blowing all over the case