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Showing 14 of 14 results by kparcell
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 30/07/2011, 11:15:08 UTC
It is actually not illegal to transact commerce in the U.S., using foreign denominations. It is illegal to print dollars, or to print a competing currency here -- that's probably one of the points they'll use to go after BC.

Mack

This stuff gets confusing!  If you follow the links I've provided you'll find that it might not be clear WHAT Bitcoin is, and this might be why we don't see any definitive opinion on this from the US Treasury, inasmuch as they might not want to make a mistake that result in a court ruling in favor of Bitcoin.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 26/07/2011, 22:14:17 UTC
I firmly believe that Bitcoin's eventual success will also be it's downfall.


That seems to be the way of it for systems that promote themselves as ways to circumvent law.  Perhaps Bitcom will change into something less like a big bullseye and survive?
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 26/07/2011, 22:10:21 UTC
I don't think it would be illegal in the UK. There are many local currencies in Britain that I know about.

The Brixton Pound for example. I hear there's a local currency in Cornwall too.



There are lots of local currencies in the US too, but one that tried to be more than a local currency was outlawed (Liberty Dollars).  Does anybody know a resource for the currency laws in the UK?
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 26/07/2011, 10:21:48 UTC
It is illegal in the US to use foreign currency because it is illegal to use any money that is not denominated in US Dollars.

I am very interested in reviewing your evidence of this claim. Post here please.

You will be waiting forever. No one in the US has to use US currency at all.



Check out the links in the comment above and you'll find info that might be useful.  You are right that nobody has to use US currency in the US (or any money for that matter), but "legal tender" means that if anyone refuses payment in US currency then the debt can be canceled by court order, which means they cannot sue for payment.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 25/07/2011, 18:49:50 UTC
Here is a link to a PDF of a book excerpt that addresses many of issues involved in alternative currencies in the US:

http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/local_currencies/Book.pdf

Unfortunately, it's from photocopies and so not searchable.

It mentions, for instance, that issuing coins or notes that are fractions of US dollars is illegal and subject to criminal penalty.  This seems to signify that any foreign currency used in commerce in the US or any scheme such as Bitcoin might do poorly in Federal Court because they were/are issued with values that are fractions of dollars.  Of course, nobody much cares until these currencies aim to circumvent law or replace US currency.

Here's a nice resource:

http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

and another interesting post:

http://www.quora.com/Is-Bitcoin-legal

and from aljazeera

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/bitcoin-and-alternative-currencies

Cheers!
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 22/07/2011, 12:36:18 UTC

A compilation of legal info in regards to Bitcoin and digital currencies is an absolute must for us. I think it deserves a bit more dignity than a thread though.

As you say, a compilation is a must for the system, but it's also interesting to discover what users believe, especially given that Bitcoin is advertised as an activity that can circumvent rules, and because Bitcoin is a fiat currency and so user opinion is the source of its value.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 22/07/2011, 12:31:21 UTC

Bitcoin may not be a "Foreign Currency" because it is not backed by any world government.

Bitcoin may not be a "Virtual currency" (Banned in China for the purchase or real goods) because is is not backed by any one issuer that can provide virtual goods and services, and is not pegged to a specific exchange rate.


Following the link you provide, I note that China has banned the use of virtual currency for the purchase of real goods, as you report, but that it also restricts the use of virtual currency to virtual goods provided by the issuer of the currency, and thus Bitcoin is effectively banned in China.  You suggest that the definition of a virtual currency includes that it is backed by one issuer that can provide goods and services and that it is pegged to a specific exchange rate.  Do you have a reference for that definition as a general rule, or are referring to China only and extrapolating from the link?

Thanks!
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 22/07/2011, 12:23:15 UTC
So you're saying that Disney dollars, Facebook credits, Wow gold, and frequent flyer points are all illegal in the US because they can be used to buy something and don't have a US dollar value?

Bitcoins in and of themselves are almost certainly without a defined legal status at this point in time - after all, they're essentially just an electronic token and there are literally thousands of different types of those in use.  What might be illegal in some jurisdictions are some of the services which are associated with Bitcoin, but until some attempt at prosecution is made and a court rules on the matter, then little can be presumed.  The law is about more than just statutes - it's also about precedent.

One area where Bitcoins may come under scrutiny soon is online gambling.  The US Department of Justice has already taken action against online gambling sites and third party payment processors for accepting funds from US citizens for online gambling.  It's unlikely that sites attempting to use Bitcoin to get around the US laws related to online gambling will succeed in claiming that they aren't "accepting funds for real money play".

I've offered to give answers to questions directed at me, but I don't want to misinform, so I'm going to duck this a little because the answers are legally complex and I'm not an expert.  But I'll offer an example to illustrate what this topic is about.

In the US, there was/is a currency called "Liberty Dollars".  It still exists, but it is illegal to use because it was ruled in a court that it is counterfeit US currency.  It's issuer is facing years in prison.  He promoted his alternative currency (AC) as a replacement for the US Dollar, and the US Treasury warned him to stop.  His AC was a terrible currency because it was backed by silver, which is hoarded when the value is high and difficult to spend when the value is uncertain.  People bought it for all kinds of reasons but there was never enough of it in circulation to interfere with commerce anywhere.  However, he was warned for years, but used the warnings to gather attention, and so he was eventually prosecuted and found guilty of a variety of offenses.

The lesson that the US Treasury wants us to take from this, presumably, is to heed its rulings.  This is why I think that what nations have officially said about Bitcoin is relevant, and I'd like to get a clearer picture of that so that I can better understand the story as it unfolds.  Nobody really cares, I think, about those cute Disney Dollars, or other tiny currencies, and Bitcoin is also tiny but it advertises as a way to circumvent rules, is under scrutiny (according to news posts), and has a wildly fluctuating value...so the writing is probably on the wall.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 21:45:39 UTC
It is illegal in the US to use foreign currency because it is illegal to use any money that is not denominated in US Dollars.

Do you have a source for this claim, by chance?

Hi Stephen.

I've found that Paul Glover at Ithaca Hours, in Ithaca, New York, is a great source for accurate information on the law regarding US currency through his guide to creating local currency, which he sells.  He was the first to answer this for me, about twenty years ago.  Since then I've had it confirmed by the US Secret Service, which is the primary US government agency that deals with financial crime.

http://www.secretservice.gov/criminal.shtml

By the way, I see you are online now and that you are a "hero", so perhaps you can answer my question by naming one nation that has ruled bitcoin either legal or illegal.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 18:56:23 UTC
Exchanging foreign currency in the US is strictly regulated, but not considered commerce.  I've heard that many ethnic communities in the US use foreign currency in commerce, but that is nevertheless illegal and if the numbers get big then I suppose they take a risk.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 18:47:17 UTC
i contacted some web hosting companies about bitcoin in my country, portugal, and one got back to me saying that they were interested but for reasons of management and legislation they couldn't implement bitcoins as a way of paying the services

Thanks, andrepcg.
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Re: List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 18:45:31 UTC
In the US, there are laws defining money and regulating its use.  Bitcoin is a money there by definition because it is used as money (almost anything can be used as money), but it isn't legal for several reasons.  One reason is that legal money in the US must be denominated in a US Dollar value with a minimum value of 1 USD.

So it's actually illegal to conduct any transaction in the US using any foreign currency that's less than 1 USD in actual value? Like say Japanese Yen or India Rupees?



It is illegal in the US to use foreign currency because it is illegal to use any money that is not denominated in US Dollars.  More specifically, it is illegal to denominate money in a foreign currency.  Interestingly, Canadian coins are in common use in the US near the Canadian border, but I doubt if anyone has ever been prosecuted.
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Topic OP
List of Legal and Illegal Nations.
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 18:25:51 UTC
Can anyone name one nation that has declared this type of exchange system either legal or illegal?

In the US, there are laws defining money and regulating its use.  Bitcoin is a money in the US by definition if it is used as money (almost anything can be used as money), but I believe it isn't legal for several reasons.  One reason is that legal money in the US must be denominated in a US Dollar value with a minimum value of 1 USD.  Bitcom neglects obvious questions in its FAQ section, such as "What is the value of a bitcoin?" (and "Where are bitcoins illegal?", etc.) and thus it can not be legally used as money in the US.

So, I'm interested in collecting useful data on these issues, beginning with a list of nations that have declared bitcoins legal or illegal.

Anyone?

Please post links to government websites that state their nations' legal opinions on bitcoins.

Thanks!

P.s. I'll check back and answer questions and compile the list from your posts of legal and illegal nations (if any) directly below this sentence.

Banned in China:  http://english.mofcom.gov.cn/aarticle/newsrelease/commonnews/200906/20090606364208.html
(Phillipsjk notes below that China has banned the use of virtual currency (in general) for the purchase of real goods, and the link he provides also notes that virtual currency can not be used to purchase virtual goods except from the issuer, so Bitcoin is effectively banned in China.)
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Re: New to BitCoin and have concerns
by
kparcell
on 21/07/2011, 18:23:29 UTC
Can anyone name one nation that has declared this type of exchange system either legal or illegal?

In the US, there are laws defining money and regulating its use.  Bitcoin is a money there by definition if it is used as money (almost anything can be used as money), but it isn't legal for several reasons.  One reason is that legal money in the US must be denominated in a US Dollar value with a minimum value of 1 USD.

Bitcom neglects obvious questions in its FAQ section, such as "What is the value of a bitcoin?" (and "Where are bitcoins illegal?", etc,) and thus it can not legally be used as money in the US.

So, I'm interested in collecting useful data on these issues, beginning with a list of nations that have declared bitcoins legal or illegal.

Anyone?  Is there an existing list?