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Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
no, i didn't ignore it. i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?
but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.
i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread. i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place. heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.
no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously. if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.
It was in reference to my missing the nail a few posts back. Your nail and mine were on different subjects, thus we were talking apples and oranges. but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.
i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread. i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place. heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.
no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously. if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.
Exactly, if we can communicate both successes and failures without embellishment, this sub-forum would help a lot of people.
well yes, hence the reason i made reference to you saying the quoted poster was 'missing the nail', then stated that it is you who is. but that still is not comparing anything.
the performance of few of the vendors are responsible for the genesis and their subsequent input (or lack thereof) is a large part of continued fanning of the flames of the current level of "hate" in this sub-forum. the rest, like 'hater' vs 'fanboy' stuff, is universal to virtually all online forums where there are both strong opinions and people's money at stake. realistically there is nothing moderators can do to eliminate that until it crosses into actual threats.
if one can't take salty language, sarcasm, their views challenged, and even insults from time to time then most online forums are not for them - this one included.
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.
Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts. I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum. The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment. That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing. If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.
If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond. I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am. I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here. Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.
The problem then becomes where to draw the line. Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.
actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.
no, i didn't ignore it. i simply had no comment on it except that i was confused as to what two things i was suppose to have compared. and how does that illustrate any point?
but i will comment now though since you seem to want me to.
i don't believe that the poster you quoted nor i called you any names nor derided you in this thread. i would agree that attacking another individual for their hardware purchasing decisions would be out of place. heck, i have put money into (undelivered) products of some of the worst performing companies currently out there so i wouldn't cast aspersions unto others in the same boat.
no, i have not searched your posting history so i have no clue what you have brought to the table previously. if i 'took the time' to go thru every posters' history i would never get anything done so that is quite unrealistic to expect.
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full.
Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts. I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum. The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment. That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing. If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points.
If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond. I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am. I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here. Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting.
The problem then becomes where to draw the line. Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire.
actually, i am not comparing anything to anything.
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income. People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent. You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income. You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.
missed the nail on this one. we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware. if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that. in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame). if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.
No, I actually didn't. I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter. Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid. You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent.
Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing. You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose. From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL. Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot. Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose.
In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race. At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH. I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time. I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH. Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613. That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613.
umm, ya, and missed again. i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant. the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant. nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not.
what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent. then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark.
so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)?
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income. People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent. You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income. You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.
missed the nail on this one. we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware. if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that. in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame). if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors.
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
Moderate nothing. Let the ignore button do it's job.
Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace. They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.
Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace. They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam.
+1.
The vast majority of really angry posts I see are directed at one company in particular and are totally justifiable IMO. Forum administration has continued to accept advertising revenue from this particular company despite the painfully obvious fraud being committed. Simply stifling the understandably angry dissenters is akin to engaging in the fraud yourselves. I'd urge bitcointalk.org admins to either continue to maintain a very light handed approach to post moderation, but if you insist on stifling free speech, then, at the very least discontinue accepting ad revenue from companies that are plainly engaging in fraudulent activities.
+2
Re: Do we want to continue to allow varrious vendor hate in here?
The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.
I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc. At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating. If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc. As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.
I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum. But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?
Does anyone have any great ideas?
I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc. At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating. If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc. As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.
I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum. But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?
Does anyone have any great ideas?
so long as vendors' words and actions continue to incite, there will be justifiable 'hate' relayed in this sub-forum. one option i see is 3 sections - one for vendors that are delivering at or close to advertised expectations, those that are delivering product but poorly, and those that are still purely vaporware. at least then there will be 1 section without the 'hate'. but i suppose the downside is that BFL will tarnish 2 of them since they would have 1 product line in the 'poor' category and 1 in 'vaporware'. so be it i guess......
Received the coins. It took 8 days since my first email to them. Expected this to be much harder.
Was there any correspondence from BFL you could share with us? It is weird that they seemingly so easily gave you a BTC refund after they have been publicly stating for a few months now no refunds will be honoured. I am curious why you are the only non PP customer I have seen recently get a refund.
It might have to do with his AG and BBB filed complaints.
prolly that coupled with their fresh cash from new monarch 'customers'.
my 2 do not have a large variance.
stock cooling/case, running 24 hours straight, in a warm room (80F). 40C 41C, 3.0v 3.1v, 7.35Gh/s 7.23Gh/s, HW errors 64 122.
These were delivered about 1 week apart. Hope the data helps you.
stock cooling/case, running 24 hours straight, in a warm room (80F). 40C 41C, 3.0v 3.1v, 7.35Gh/s 7.23Gh/s, HW errors 64 122.
These were delivered about 1 week apart. Hope the data helps you.
Hmmm. Damn. I'm getting only 360 after raising it to 950mhz and mem to 1200
my first test card may be a freak but it is faster scrypt hashing (cgminer) with a lower engine clock. it likes 850 best so far.
Someone on this forum showed me this and I figured I would share with the community.
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202032
These are 6870's that are really just rebranded 5870's.
So they pull over 400 mh/s-kh/s without the need to overclock.
All for $130 ($120 after the mail-in rebate).
That's over 100 mh/s-kh/s more than a typical 6870, for the same price as a used 6870 on Ebay.
Hurry and get yours before the vultures come, buy them all up, and then try to sell them at a ridiculous mark-up.
Fan mail:
This is a hobby for me. I am not in this to get rich. I am here to have fun and support the currency, so I much rather help out others looking to get into mining by spreading this deal while it lasts.
Link: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202032
These are 6870's that are really just rebranded 5870's.
So they pull over 400 mh/s-kh/s without the need to overclock.
All for $130 ($120 after the mail-in rebate).
That's over 100 mh/s-kh/s more than a typical 6870, for the same price as a used 6870 on Ebay.
Hurry and get yours before the vultures come, buy them all up, and then try to sell them at a ridiculous mark-up.
Fan mail:
Quote
You should learn how to keep your mouth shut and maybe youd be able to make some money in this business. If you tell the world than the short run they are doing on them will be gone in minutes. If only a few people figure it out at a time that allows people who know what there doing to make the money. Anyways a little piece of advice.
This is a hobby for me. I am not in this to get rich. I am here to have fun and support the currency, so I much rather help out others looking to get into mining by spreading this deal while it lasts.
thank you for sharing. even though i am on newegg's site daily i still didn't notice these until you posted.
You know what? I did not set up the original shipping and I don't know anything about the original shipping. If you didn't pay for overnight shipping (which you didn't) then you aren't getting overnight shipping. If you paid for shipping prior to February, you paid for standard shipping and that's what you're getting, whatever name you want to call it. Chances are, if you paid for shipping after February, you also paid for standard shipping. There is no one that paid "extra" for expedited shipping prior to that.
If you want to upgrade your shipping, upgrade your shipping. If you don't, then don't, it's as simple as that. You can call the shipping anything you want, it doesn't matter to me.
If you want to upgrade your shipping, upgrade your shipping. If you don't, then don't, it's as simple as that. You can call the shipping anything you want, it doesn't matter to me.
Based on the USPS menu it looks like the only other 2 viable options are Priority Mail (2-3 days conus) or Standard Post (2-8 days conus). For those that may be on the fence about upgrading shipping it would be good to know exactly which service they are currently subject to in order to make an educated decision.
If you paid prior to February for shipping, you didn't pay for express shipping. All shipping was called express shipping prior to that, which is what the USPS calls it. Express shipping is now and upgrade from standard shipping, which is still USPS's Express Shipping.
Don't blame me because the USPS calls their regular shipping "express shipping."
Don't blame me because the USPS calls their regular shipping "express shipping."
Express is not exclusive to usps. It's a actual term. Obviously you guys know that, why else would you change it at the last minute? You could at least charge a reasonable price, these are price gouging rates. After delays, no customer support, missing specs and shipping orders out of position. You could at least do right by the customers this time... It's doesn't help offering a second shipping option anyway. It's just a last minute way to rake in more profits. And no one wants to go through usps anyway, they have the worst service of anyone.
I confused international service rates with domestic service rates.
!) Domestically, there is only 1 type of express service offered by USPS.
USPS Express Mail (Overnight): https://www.usps.com/ship/express-mail.htm
!) Internationally, there are 2 types of Express service offered by USPS.
USPS Express Mail International: 3 to 5 day service
USPS GXG: 1 to 3 day service (via FedEx)
https://www.usps.com/ship/express-mail-international.htm
No matter how I look at it. Inaba is simply not being accurate. Take a look.
So, if I take it all together that would mean that if one is in the US that all their pre-February orders will be USPS Express mail, hence subject to overnight delivery?
when you are 6 months late and 100% ROI has gone from hours to months during that 'gap' people have a right to bitch........
Hours lol, how much do you think BTC was worth 6mths ago to support you claim?
corrected to reflect days instead of hours. still a long way away from the ROI it will be when/if regular customers are seeking it from the units that were promised to be delivered in october.
BTC was worth the same then as it is now, 1 BTC = 1 BTC. meaning if one invested BTC to acquire a device that allows them 'produce' BTC then that is how their ROI would factor.
BFL products are not priced in BTC, your analogy is irrelevant, you might as well have used the price of oil or gold, or even LTC as a comparison.
rrrrright. rather than allow that tired arguement to distract from the issue here - it doesn't matter how one measures their own ROI as it is negative right now. some metrics being more than others, but those that early pre-ordered and expected product 6 months ago are in a hole and it gets deeper by the day. and since BFL has also blown their power numbers by a long shot it will take even longer to get out of the 'ROI hole'.
when you are 6 months late and 100% ROI has gone from hours to months during that 'gap' people have a right to bitch........
Hours lol, how much do you think BTC was worth 6mths ago to support you claim?
corrected to reflect days instead of hours. still a long way away from the ROI it will be when/if regular customers are seeking it from the units that were promised to be delivered in october.
BTC was worth the same then as it is now, 1 BTC = 1 BTC. meaning if one invested BTC to acquire a device that allows them 'produce' BTC then that is how their ROI would factor.
BFL products are not priced in BTC, your analogy is irrelevant, you might as well have used the price of oil or gold, or even LTC as a comparison.
If I spent USD to acquire a device that produced USD and the device was from Europe and was priced in Euros, would you want to limit the discussion on ROI only to Euros? No. That would be nonsense.
wait for it.....
i'm feeling the pathetic argument coming that because BFL doubled their prices in USD for the 'current' versions of the products that early pre-orderers were sages and should be happy about the current state of things.