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Showing 7 of 7 results by tim2020
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Board Speculation
Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 21:17:53 UTC
One argument I would like to make is I don't consider SPV to be a "feature" like blacklisting but moreso an "upgrade" on a scheme that is already possible within the existing Bitcoin protocol (federated peg can be implemented right now as you have pointed out).

I think it is clearly a new feature (not that that's necessarily a bad thing--one could argue that Pay2ScriptHash was a new feature too).  The fact that federated sidechains are already possible in no way means that adding OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY is an "upgrade." The federated servers sit on top of the bitcoin protocol, whereas the SPV-proof-based sidechains would be integrated within the protocol.  If you argue that SPV-sidechains would be an "upgrade," would you not also argue that native support for colored coins or Counterparty features would also be an "upgrade"?  Like federated sidechains, these features are already possible on platforms that sit on top of bitcoin too.  

brg444: Do you support a hard-fork to increase the max block size limit?

Thank Peter, I've got a much better understanding of the politics involved. This solidifies my understanding of the argument that it's * not * an insignificant change.

* edit *
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Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 21:01:33 UTC
This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Probably because some people became invested (financially and/or emotionally) in various strategies which were predicated on certain expectations of how Bitcoin would overcome it's rather obvious weaknesses and did not anticipate sidechains as being one of them.

In this respect sidechains are every bit as much of a 'disruptive technology' to Bitcoin as Bitcoin is to the mainstream debt-based monetary system.  Naturally some people will lose, but they won't be going down without a fight.


Thanks for your reply. I'm not convinced Bitcoin is all that disruptive, the problem I see in fiat, is governments are creating more than relative GDP. To that existent Bitcoin can be a store of value to offset the overprinting.

So I'm not seeing the potential disruption to Bitcoin. As a small holder of Bitcoin having survived one bear market, how do Side Chains disrupt Bitcoin and what does this mean for it's function as a store of value?

I just mean that if one had been planning their activities based on the assumption that Bitcoin would balloon and centralize to a smaller number of favored infrastructure providers (as one example) then sidechains could be considered highly disruptive to plans built around that expectation.

One (of many) business opportunities was the construction of a tainting authority.  It could not work in a free ecosystem and also could not work without a government mandate which would force customers (e.g., TigerDirect) onto the entity's client list.

I've outlined before how tainting could be bootstrapped without any changes to Bitcoin's protocol and with a small fraction of vendors being on-board and under modern law they could easily be made to have no choice.  In a nutshell, I will devalue a tainted BTC you wish to give me even if I don't agree with tainting and have no expectation of using it at TigerDirect.  The reason I will devalue it is that I myself have to get rid of it at some point.

Anyway, sidechains can make tainting vastly more difficult because of the natural mixing and distribution effects which happen within the chains.  And they can pop up in whack-a-mole fasion if attacked.  Even if tainting impacts sidechains via the peg, I will tend to devalue sidechain currency less because there is a strong possibility that I will do much of my activity completely within the chain.


Thanks
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Topic
Board Speculation
Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 20:53:59 UTC
This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Probably because some people became invested (financially and/or emotionally) in various strategies which were predicated on certain expectations of how Bitcoin would overcome it's rather obvious weaknesses and did not anticipate sidechains as being one of them.

In this respect sidechains are every bit as much of a 'disruptive technology' to Bitcoin as Bitcoin is to the mainstream debt-based monetary system.  Naturally some people will lose, but they won't be going down without a fight.


Thanks for your reply. I'm not convinced Bitcoin is all that disruptive, the problem I see in fiat, is governments are creating more than relative GDP. To that existent Bitcoin can be a store of value to offset the overprinting.

So I'm not seeing the potential disruption to Bitcoin. As a small holder of Bitcoin having survived one bear market, how do Side Chains disrupt Bitcoin and what does this mean for it's function as a store of value?

If you don't see the disruption in Bitcoin I would suggest you concentrate on this before engaging sidechains.

Here is an excellent post from Peter R here about the importance of money as a ledger and why Bitcoin is the best ledger technology available to us :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9247581#msg9247581


Thanks for the link I see the potential, it would seem Side Chains are like other ledgers that are linked to the Bitcoin ledger. I see how they could be a threat, if they grow in value it would detract from the primary ledger of value, possibly competing with it.
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Topic
Board Speculation
Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 20:45:13 UTC
This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Here are some of my thoughts on the pros pulled up from a previous post. Maybe someone can provide some summary of reasonable cons that are well argued and based on facts and not speculation. I know there certainly was a couple of these throughout the discussion

Quote
Sidechains enable miners to continue claiming BTC transactions fxs in a future where the Bitcoin blockchain will be unable to accomodate all types or needs of transactions. It incentivizes miners to continue securing the network in the best possible way by insuring their profitability.

It is an improvement on the current situation where transactions are ALREADY tending to be processed off-chain for convenience, speed and utility. Given the absolute existence and growth of demand for transactions types that are not implementable on the Bitcoin sidechain, the exodus of transactions to off-chain schemes is a rational concern going forward.

This is not only true with concern to miners and their transaction fees but also for the integrity of the Bitcoin ledger. Off-chain schemes inherently require additional trust in that the ledger will be preserved. The most likely suspects to inflate Bitcoin in its current state are these off-chain schemes. SPVProof sidechains enables the possibility to ensure the conservation of the ledger on a protocol level. With this we potentially eliminate fractional reserve schemes. If your chain/service/application do not recognize and preserve my stake in the ledger, at the extent that I am not looking to speculate on it,  then you will not have my money and neither will you profit from the ledger's network effect.

Of course, this feature can be changed at the whims of the sidechain creator but it is in the interest of the consensus majority of the network to preserve the value of their investment, no matter the speculative prospects.

....

SPVProof sidechains, combined with merged-mining, enables miners to accomodate different chains with their security while reserving the rights to claim the transactions of any chain that gains significant traction. Their services are like a stamp of approval. Inclusion into the circle of chains who are MM by miners in some sort validates the legitimacy of a chain.

It is reasonable to assume a majority of sidechains will be bootstrapped on top of a federated model as it enables more security in the probable scenario where you will not be "backed" by the majority of miners from the start. You'll have to "earn your stripes", especially if you are a private entity/corporation.

The most established and community supported/used chains will end up being nearly as secure as BTC's mainchain simply because their value will command the ultimate security/decentralization

Awesome reply thanks,
I see the fundamental need for Bitcoin is the store of value, we also have many other crypto coins for other interesting functions, is this the potential source of disruption referred too?

Why do you feel miners need more incentives? Isn't that like central bank feeling like it's good to incentivize parts of the economy?

It also occurs to me that you want Bitcoin to compete with other cryptocurrencies, why can't we use other products for speed and utility?
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Topic
Board Speculation
Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 19:28:27 UTC
This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?

Probably because some people became invested (financially and/or emotionally) in various strategies which were predicated on certain expectations of how Bitcoin would overcome it's rather obvious weaknesses and did not anticipate sidechains as being one of them.

In this respect sidechains are every bit as much of a 'disruptive technology' to Bitcoin as Bitcoin is to the mainstream debt-based monetary system.  Naturally some people will lose, but they won't be going down without a fight.


Thanks for your reply. I'm not convinced Bitcoin is all that disruptive, the problem I see in fiat, is governments are creating more than relative GDP. To that existent Bitcoin can be a store of value to offset the overprinting.

So I'm not seeing the potential disruption to Bitcoin. As a small holder of Bitcoin having survived one bear market, how do Side Chains disrupt Bitcoin and what does this mean for it's function as a store of value?
Post
Topic
Board Speculation
Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 18:28:46 UTC
This is a popular thread in that it's always at the top. I've been fascinated by Bitcoin for for over a year, and have decided to join bitcointalk.org to get more involved.
I see Side Chains as more interesting than gold and would really appreciate a summary of the pros and cons they have for Bitcoin.

Why is this even a debated topic?
Post
Topic
Board Economics
Re: I had a thought today
by
tim2020
on 15/11/2014, 18:21:12 UTC
OP you are very smart, this is the problem that almost everyone never noticed: The fiat money has become the default unit of value domestically

It is so natural to measure value using USD thus people have already get used to it, just like uneducated people always think the sun is going around the earth

The value is all relevant, people will stop using fiat money as unit of value once they had some better unit, I think energy could be the most objective measure of value. Because bitcoin is produced mostly by energy, it is a much more accurate measure of value than fiat money

I've been redirected to bitcointalk.org many times, and finally opted to join, I bought some Bitcoin in April of 2013, for the fundamental reason that dollars are what we use to measure value. I became quite doubtful, hence the incessant obsession with Bitcoin.

While I've always thought energy is what backs productivity through mechanization, and countries issue currency based on there productivity, in my understanding energy is potential wealth, why do you think it is used energy that makes Bitcoin valuable?