Quote from: mithras on October 16, 2017, 10:51:01 AM

Why should any exchange list your token (which is needed for most people to be interested and for it to gain any real value), when you have screwed the one exchange that did by freezing the wallet?

This is the key question for me. I left Ohni because the work environment was poor. TTM told me to either return most of the tokens I had received or to sell them right away (only plausible place was stocks.exchange). He threatened to freeze my account if I didn't. I moved the tokens to stocks.exchange and sold some of them, there wasn't much of a market. I even bought&sold some more to try to create more of a market. I did this not out of any love of money, or love of Ohni, but knowing that there were nice people who had worked for Ohni and others who continued to and there was a limited market for Ohni, and that if the exchange stopped supporting it things would get even worse. I ended up with a bit of ether out of it. The people who paid me ether ended up with Ohni sitting on that exchange, and then the exchange's account was frozen. This harmed both the exchange and anyone who bought Ohni.

This whole section of the white paper is a problem. Naturally TTM tries to put a spin on it. But let's look around. TTM says he thinks the people who left Ohni did so out of greed or something. But what did they have to gain, other than no longer sinking their time into a project that they didn't think would work out? He says only one person returned Ohni to him as he demanded, and suggests another possibility that the others tried to sabotage Ohni because they were leaving. Why sabotage Ohni if you're sitting on 100,000,000 Ohni or whatever, and you're trying to sell it into a market that doesn't exist? It sounds more like they had legitimate concerns that their conscience didn't allow them to hide.

A second point, the white paper claims that TTM demanded Ohni back because he had handed out Ohni for "promised work". But that was not the way TTM ever operated. He would go on Discord and ask people to do things, either promising a specific amount as reward or leaving it unspecified. Often these were things that could get done quickly, and they would be done and TTM would say he would be sending the Ohni. Other times he would ask people to do things like send airdrop to a hundred people; and after they had done it he would reimburse them the Ohni (if he hadn't already provided it), and say he was adding some more "for them". Or TTM would compliment someone on some work they did and tell them they would be getting some Ohni soon. Now I will tell you that at one point I told him that I thought he was being too liberal with the payments for work, but that was what he wanted to do. TTM said people needed to be paid to get things done quickly, because he was afraid the window was closing on the opportunity to make money from ICO (China, SEC). TTM said Ohni could only work with an ICO bubble, but if the bubble lasted a couple of more years it would work out. People told him having lots of Ohni out already to employees and airdrops could weaken the ICO, but it was only when a few major people left that he got the idea that there could be a problem. The time when he suddenly wanted Ohni back was right after a few people left simultaneously. I was one of them; when his "right hand man, second in command" left I realized things were dire; TTM said I was then second in command, but I left. I can tell you that all of the people who left in that batch were real workers; if you think maybe some people were overpaid and others underpaid or whatever, these people were definitely not overpaid, relatively speaking.

A third point, this section of the white paper claims that stocks.exchange was begging TTM to be allowed to list them and that TTM was reluctant to allow Ohni on the market. You can check them out on twitter for yourself and decide whom you believe. @StocksExchangeR posted a screen of an interaction between them with TTM trying to convince them it's a good idea to list Ohni and they would be remembered for believing in Ohni before anyone else, and in the end TTM saying how excited "the guys" were all going to be with the great news about the listing. And indeed, when it happened TTM was talking it up in the Discord, and telling people to jump on the Internet and spread the good word. And the guys were excited, and a guy made a Rock meme (?) about guess-what-Ohni-got-listed and the guys spread it around. People would take their Ohni from airdrops and sell them on the exchange and we would joke on Discord about how they sold them for a steak dinner; but TTM said that's okay, there will always be some loose hands, we just need to get the price up a bit and then there would be some /biz/ airdrop guys bragging about getting a free $300 and giving us publicity. Stocks.exchange also posted a DM conversation showing how TTM was on them for a number of days trying to convince them to seize Ohni and hand it over to TTM. The white paper says stocks.exchange is some kind of backwater exchange. It's not CoinBase, but these guys have shown up on television and spoken at conferences. What is TTM compared to them? All this fuss over 600,000,000 Ohni that TTM wanted stocks.exchange to seize. While that conversation was going on, TTM could have bought all that Ohni for what? 6 ETH? Was 6 ETH so important that TTM couldn't just buy the Ohni, not deal with having burnt an exchange, and relieving the workers who left of their Ohni that he told them to sell? Oh, and BTW, in that twitter convo that @StocksExchangeR posted, TTM claims that those Ohni were never supposed to be made available on the market. ORLY?

(Sorry I did not read whole thread before reply. Busy working, so just saw now. Will read thread now. I'll try to check in, so AMA.)

(It turns out thread is full of shills getting a few tokens to flood the thread and make actual discussion harder to see. I see that the white paper has had some improvement. Some concerns people stated are worked on, and some deficiencies are better hidden now. I had a ray of hope this meant the shakeup at Ohni meant TTM had become more willing to listen to those people who remained. But this thread shows that Ohni is still all about the shilling. What is the value of Ohni? Look at the white paper. I don't mean ask yourselves whether you want green power or anything else mentioned. I mean ask yourself what in that white paper ever causes the Ohni token to be worth anything? It isn't even special tokens, such as selling tokens to businesses for $1000 per product, if that ever happens. That would have to be a new token; it won't be the token that you were given today or that you bought today.)

Larry Livingston

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