Quote from: BCEmporium on October 09, 2014, 02:06:10 AM

As always Muslims find every barbaric deed of Muhammad "justified". Ever wonder that we don't have the other side of the story, mainly because Muhammad killed them?
And how is camel urine and milk working for medicine? Good?... Grin

Often, specially with Western born Muslims, we see some "Jesus-Muhammad" link at their heads. They say about a murderous warlord things like "he suffered a lot"... yeah right! That just sounds like a lawyer defending his client with "he had a difficult childhood".

About Al-Tabari, you will find the same or similar texts at Bukhari or Muslim.

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For if there is nothing after death you have nothing to lose or gain but if there is afterlife, what will be your fate on that time?

Actually anything is better than your notions of "Paradise"...
Make Paradise HERE, don't get lured by the ultimate scam, the scam you will just find out you were scammed once you are dead and nothing can be done about it.

"Ever wonder that we don't have the other side of the story, mainly because Muhammad killed them?"
Wow! Such speculation! There is speculation subforum in Bitcointalk you know.
I am still waiting for the thousands hadeeths that you claim telling the prophet was a violent person.

Camel milk and urine do not sound medicinal today but 1430 years ago people dont have much to go by and Muslims believe anything that Allah or Muhammad (peace be upon him) has commanded to do is for our own good. We know the benefits of milk but camel urine, maybe site below can clarify
http://islamqa.info/en/83423

I do not understand what you mean by "Jesus-Muhammad" link. Jesus or Isa (peace be upon him) was one of the messenger of Allah and Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the final messenger of Allah.
And no need to involve lawyer here, just read his life story. Site below is a very concise seerah if you dont have time.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Seerah/iSeerah.html

Show me where the two narrations that you quoted before from Al-Tabari can be found in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim.

I did not mention paradise and certainly I am not trying to scam anybody. If what Quran is saying is the truth then the truth will reveal itself, I am just trying to give people motivation to read it, try to understand and be open minded. Forcing anybody to accept any religion is prohibited in Islam.
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." (2:256)
http://quran.com/2/256
And how can the world that is contained within it corruption, destruction, injustice, and evil be paradise?

Quote from: BADecker on October 09, 2014, 09:22:28 AM

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If you are preaching hate on a religion you are also sowing hatred to the people that believe in it.
Show me in the bible where it states it is allowed to hate other religions. I had a conversation with a couple of Jehovah Witnesses about 3 weeks ago and it was one of the friendliest conversations for one and a half hour I have had with strangers. I did not feel any hatred from them and they even gave me a copy of a bible for free.

Hating a religion isn't necessarily preaching hate on the people of that religion. But it might be.

Consider the Revelation where Jesus says to the church in Ephesus, "But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Perhaps St. Paul never said, "I hate such and such religion." But he certainly showed it by vigorously trying to convert people from all other religions to Christianity. Barely did he preach against a particular religion. Probably never did he use the words, "I hate ...," but you can't get much stronger hate for religions at the same time there was love and hope for the people of those religions. His actions showed it.

Further, when the people of any religion that is not the truth, will not turn from the falsehood, they have become a part of it. So, it is not the people that are being hated. It is the religion in them that is being hated.

Consider war... Vietnam. Our guys finally hated "them" because they were killing our guys. Perhaps we were not justified in being there, but there was hate on both sides. The creed of the soldier is to do what it takes to win the goal. This is very much like the theme of every religious creed. The fact that their are friendships made between enemies at times, and the fact that there are peaceful negotiations being done at times, doesn't lessen the hate at other times.

Christianity has been at war with Islam for hundreds of years. Many Muslims have converted to Christianity. There is no hate for them. It is for the religion that there is hate. But if they persist ...

EDIT: Jehovah's Witness is a Christian denomination, not a separate religion.

From what I can understand, I dont see the verse saying it is allowed to hate any religion. Firstly it says "practices" and not "every practice". Maybe it was just referring to bad practices. Secondly even if it was saying hate to their religion that does not mean one can hate other religion as well. I would assume there were many other religions at that time and that verse only referring to one group. Find me a verse that clearly says "hate other religion except for christianity" or similar.

Preaching with love and hate at the same time? I dont see how that is possible. And does this St. Paul refers to Paul the Apostle? If yes, I have one questions about him. He was born after the time of Jesus but why did he have so much authority on the bible? The bible is supposed to be the teachings of Jesus but 14 books out of 27 are attributed to Paul.

"Further, when the people of any religion that is not the truth, will not turn from the falsehood, they have become a part of it."
What is the point of preaching if people will not turn from falsehood?

"The creed of the soldier is to do what it takes to win the goal. This is very much like the theme of every religious creed."
Woah, that is not in Islam belief.

"But if they persist ..."
What will happen?

This may just be me, but your hate preaching is not bringing a good picture of christianity.

I made that distinction because I always see people putting Jehovah Witness under bad light but they were friendly to me. When people say bad things about one group it builds up negative preconception people have on that group, the same thing is happening to Islam today in the media. If any Muslim does bad thing, Islam comes up. You rarely see this happening with other religions or beliefs. Now we have some new voculabularies such as "islamist", "jihadist", and so on that are used when some Muslims do atrocities, even when people hearing the word "terrorist" they will think of an arab with beard and turban fledging ak-47. The media keeps on doing this to damage peoples view on Islam.

Quote from: SecureExchange on October 09, 2014, 10:06:47 AM

1 word: ISIS

should I say more ?

1 verse from the Quran
"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors." (5:32)
http://quran.com/5/32
Killing of one innocent person irregardless of religion, belief, gender or race is forbidden in Islam and it is equivalent to killing the whole of mankind according to the verse above.
More verses from the Quran on this topic
http://english.islammessage.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?articleId=931
So dont hate Islam for atrocities of some Muslim groups as Islam clearly forbids anything that involves killing of innocent persons.

Quote from: Spendulus on October 10, 2014, 12:44:15 AM

Quote from: SecureExchange on October 09, 2014, 10:06:47 AM

1 word: ISIS

should I say more ?

It will always return to this with Islam. If not the 1984 Israeli murders in the Olympics, if not the 1993 attempt to bomb the World Trade Center, if not a copilot of a 747 yelling "Allah Akbar" as he drove that jet into the sea, if not the 2001 atrocities, if not the beheadings, if not a "Soldier of Allah" killing at Ft. Hood, Texas, if not yet another "Muslim convert" beheading a woman in Oklahoma, if not ISIS.....

Over and over and over. This becomes the theme, the central narrative of Islam.

I don't HATE Islam, but in the absence of strong and near unanimous FATWAs from the religious leaders against these barbarians in their midst, I cannot respect it one bit. It is unworthy of respect. Does not matter if some believe it is good, the best, the word of god, blah blah blah.

Certainly many consider that these minority violent fragments of Islam are quietly and passively tolerated by the greater societies of Islam, and are often funded under the table by many who would not openly admit it.

Evidence points in that direction. We know many in Saudi Arabian supported the 911 hijackers, we know Pakistanis celebrated with street parties at 911, we know that ISIS and many other violent groups are supported monetarily by other Muslims.

Quote from: Dende on October 09, 2014, 01:19:35 AM

....
Putting an effort to study Quran and Sunnah by oneself can avoid a Muslim from following a bad mullah or imam or fall into deviant teachings.
......

The historical evidence does not show that the Muslim religion contains sufficient clarity to adequately safeguard against what you call "deviant teachings." That is I think what others on this thread have been trying to explain to you. The books themselves can and do support the "deviant teachings".

To adequately comprehend the problem, it is best that a Muslim discuss such a matter with reasonably knowledgeable non-Muslims, whether they be Christian or atheist or something else. In many cases they will be far less biased than your own mullahs and such and will see things clearly.

Killings of innocent persons is not Islam as Quran verse above tells. Dont need any fatwa to tell that. Unfortunately some people take just some verses from the Quran without proper understanding of the context to justify their actions.

"This becomes the theme, the central narrative of Islam."
If you are following mainstream media you will likely only hear this because it sells, unfortunately. And second, put your tinfoil hat on. Mass media has agendas against Islam and large portion of them are being controlled by jews.
http://theunjustmedia.com/Media/Six%20Jewish%20Companies%20Control%2096%25%20of%20the%20World%E2%80%99s%20Media.htm
As an example, if you watched US mainstream news about Israel and Palestine, Israel is potrayed as victim and Palestinian as terrorist. Thankfully, internet has given people more access to alternative news source.

It is nice to hear that you do not hate Islam. There are fatwas against groups such as ISIS but they are not heard of because of the reason above. There is also a book, Fatwa on Terrorism which condemn act of terrorism and suicide bombing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa_on_Terrorism

"Certainly many consider that these minority violent fragments of Islam are quietly and passively tolerated by the greater societies of Islam, and are often funded under the table by many who would not openly admit it."
I have never met any Muslim that tolerate these violent groups. "often funded under the table" I dont know about that, if you have reliable source please share.

"Evidence points in that direction. We know many in Saudi Arabian supported the 911 hijackers, we know Pakistanis celebrated with street parties at 911, we know that ISIS and many other violent groups are supported monetarily by other Muslims."
I dont know any of that, please give some sources if you have.

Allah has sent the Quran as guidance for human beings but there are some people with corruption in their hearts that want to deviate from the guidance of Quran for their own gain, status, ego, agendas, desires, etc. One likely cannot understand fully the message of the Quran and a more knowledgeable person is needed to clarify it. It happens that the person that one can only refer to belongs to a deviant teaching. As such one must put effort in understanding the religion by oneself to avoid following it and also Muslims are commanded by Allah to ask Him for help and guidance everytime we make prayer.
"It is You we worship and You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path -" (1:5-6)
http://quran.com/1

I agree with the last point, dialogue between Muslim and non-Muslim can broaden up perspective in search of solutions to the problems that we are seeing today and working together is better than by oneself. Moreover it can also relieve tensions and misunderstandings between different people of different religions.

Dende

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