Quote from: StanLarimer on January 12, 2015, 11:04:05 PM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on January 12, 2015, 09:36:28 PM

Quote from: StanLarimer on January 10, 2015, 07:34:34 PM

Guys like xeldel make it possible to hire marketers, celebrities, or old rocket scientists who don't have a clue how to run a delegate.

It's a running joke, but you are right, it's clear I'm using it too much.

By centralizing the forgers, which is exactly what you are doing whether you want to call it that or not, you are practicing a form of wealth redistribution (aka COMMUNISM!).

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

COMMUNISM is the perfect word to describe Bitshares. Communism is a centralized, hierarchical form of governance where wealth is transfered by force from the unprivileged to the privileged. It is the substitution of competing private enterprises with one state controlled private enterprise. It is creation of a system which combines political and capital bureaucracy into one all-powerful bureaucracy. These two forces (political and capital) which should be opposed to each other are consolidated into one creating a "new master class" (101 delegates). This "new master class" is in fact a state capitalist monopoly which centralizes its rule over the people under the auspices of "economy" and "efficiency" for the "betterment of the society."

Quote from: StanLarimer on January 12, 2015, 11:04:05 PM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on January 12, 2015, 09:36:28 PM

In NXT, there isn't a government.

That's fine. We are reengineering government. You don't have to participate.

A Communist government. A government controlled and dominated by the privileged elite. I don't want to participate in such a scheme.

Quote from: StanLarimer on January 12, 2015, 11:04:05 PM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on January 12, 2015, 09:36:28 PM

In a PoS system, THEY ARE ACTUALLY INVOLVED REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIZE!

Quote from: StanLarimer on January 12, 2015, 11:04:05 PM

The whole point of my article is that kind of involvement is meaningless and imparts exactly zero additional security. The point was:

No outsider, much less the same outsider, will get honored with another turn in the same confirmation window to weigh in on whether any particular transaction should be confirmed. Thus, all transactions are confirmed by insiders.

True for Bitshares. FALSE FOR NXT!

Please show me an example where that has ever happened.

You said "No outsider". That is a false statement. There are 1 Billion NXT. 1 Billion divided by 101 equals 9.9 million. People with less than 9.9 million NXT have forged a block. If you have 1 million NXT, you forge 2.08 blocks a day. There is a high chance an individual with less than 9.9 million NXT would add a block that would help confirm transactions.

Quote from: StanLarimer on January 12, 2015, 11:04:05 PM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on January 12, 2015, 09:36:28 PM

What are you talking about? ... With PoW, you participate in consensus if you contribute hashpower. With PoS, you participate in consensus if you own coins and forge.

There are not just "101 pools of coins" in PoS.

I was being generous, allowing you to take credit for the Top 101 pools of your coins as having some some impact on the actual outcome in the validation of transactions. I suspect it's less. Prove me wrong and I'll eat a whole coconut cream pie.

What you are advocating is the redistribution of forging power. Where you and I differ is that you believe it is necessary for the State (101 delegates) to intervene and redistribute forging power to themselves and I believe forging power should be left in the hands of its rightful owners and the free market should determine its allocation. If an individual forges one block a day, does that qualify as worthy? If he forges one block a week, does that also qualify as adding decentralization to the chain? You have gone down an extremely slippery slope in disenfranchising forgers based on your opinion of their "contribution" to the decentralization of the system under the auspices of "economy" and "efficiency". IMO, a forger who contributes one block a day to the chain adds in its decentralization. Personally, I believe a forger who forges one block a week adds a sizable quantity of decentralization. In NXT to forge one block a day, you need 500,000 NXT. 500,000 * 101 = 50,500,000 NXT. There is over eight times as much NXT forging. I believe that constitutes as more than "101 pools of coins" securing the network.

I would like to say this. Some people probably think that I'm opposed to Bitshares because I'm a NXT supporter. This is not true. I am though strongly opposed to the taking advantage of people who are uninformed and who are not economically privileged. This is IMO what Bitshares' DPoS algorithm does. People purchase Bitshares believing that it's decentralized, their vote actually matters, and their money will be protected. The truth of the matter is none of this is actually true. It is controlled by 101 individuals (maybe? who really knows). The wealthiest stakeholders dominate voting to such a degree it creates a blockchain plutocracy. Their money is taxed via inflation to support the largest stakeholders. Some people will claim the delegates won't be the wealthiest stakeholders. I say, "Don't be naive." They have the means to escape the blockchain taxation by occupying delegate positions which control more stake than they own. The Bitshares' devs actually encourage individuals to occupy multiple delegate positions. I have no doubt that this will occur and what is being proposed as a blockchain "meritocracy" is really a blockchain plutocracy which will result in the disenfranchisement of the smaller stakeholders to the benefit of the ruling elite.