Quote from: Specular on February 12, 2015, 12:54:19 AM

Chiming in on the Greek situation.

One of the interesting things I have learned over the last few days has been how the bailout money was actually used.

Just like in 2008, the bailouts were designed to prevent a broader financial panic involving the banks. Of the 230 billion euros that Greece received, only 11% actually stayed in Greece to finance government activity. The rest was used to pay back old bondholders (mainly Greek and European Banks) and make interest payments.

Instead of defaulting 5 years ago, the Greeks were strong-armed into a bailout designed to prevent panic. Then the crisis spread to other countries, and the EU has muddled through from one crisis to the next for 5 years. After losing 25% of GDP, a chronic unemployment rate above 26% and with debt at 170 debt/GDP ratios, the Greeks are screwed and, more importantly, they have nothing to lose. They either default and possibly leave the Euro, or they stick with the horrible depression they have been in for 5yrs.

The difference is that if they default today, German and Italian banks will not take a hit, BUT if they default (and especially if they leave the Euro), the financial and political ramifications are impossible to predict. It could be the EU's Lehman moment.

I am surprised that the Germans are letting this get so unpleasant. The amount the Greeks want is nothing compared to the strategic importance of Greece as a NATO ally. They must be seriously worried about the signal they would send to Spain and Italy if they agree to let Greece write off some debt. The political environment in Europe is turning against Germany - the real wild-card in this situation are Austerity-weary voters.

Source for the bailout stats (Martin Wolf of the FT)- http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/44c56806-a556-11e4-ad35-00144feab7de.html#axzz3RNvpcnSg

I certainly couldn't write the facts better. Congrats on delivering the truth Specular.

Quote from: Mota on February 12, 2015, 12:36:00 AM

It's understandable that you are searching for arguments to get Germany to cut some of the debts, but the warcrime reparations payment is laughable at best. Do you even know how much Germany paid after WW1? 67,7 Billion Goldmark (~225B with todays prices). I won't start with WW2 because it's a lot more difficult, but trust me that the damages paid were some orders of magnitude higher if calculated with current prices.

Just because Greece is nearly bancrupt does not mean you can just pull some 70 year old reparations out of your pockets in order to get by. The sad thing is, you are bancrupt even with all the help you got, Ireland etc. got the same help and are stabilized, but your country has just so much debt in the private sector - even with a cut in eu debt - you still won't be able to pay back the private creditors.

@Mota:
It's nice of you not mentioning about the German WW2 reparations, because THERE WERE NOT ANY!

Take a good look at this picture. It's from 1953 where the second man from the left is the late Konstantinos Karamanlis. This man together with the leaders of 20 countries have signed off the "biggest since the Weimar era haircut" since Germany couldn't afford to pay its debt to those countries.

Germany has the OBLIGATION to remember that its growth and prosperity is based on the graciousness of its opponents to rub 50% of its enormous debt towards them. So please take this in mind and get your (historical) facts straight before start bashing (something you enjoy as a German, since you've mentioned it yourself).

As for your current economic growth there are certain facts that it's based on other things than "hard work" only. Please read without prejudice about the most famous German companies and how they got bigger:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imerodromos.gr%2Fsoible-aima%2F&edit-text=

Last but not Least:
What's not being told, is WHERE THE FUCK the funds went. I quoted Specular's post above since he was very thorough posting the absolute truth about them. I indulge you to read it again if you didn't understand it properly. So quit blaming us for our previous sins, for nobody from our politicians (yours too) is a saint.

I personally wish (as a Greek) that we don't come into an agreement. I wish Varoufakis has a pair of balls of steel (TM) to make the bold move NOT to sign with any of EU financial ministers about ANY continuance of the despicable austerity program of yours. We don't need your money, more than what you need your precious coherence within your EU economic prison. Things will be not far worse for us - we're out in the rain and wet through and through.

Some say that if we leave the EU, it will be better for you too...
Good luck with that. You're going to need it. Roll Eyes