Quote from: johnyj on February 13, 2015, 07:28:32 AM

No doubt, it is this logic makes bitcoin a money: If there are enough people who think bitcoin is money, then it is money. So to the end, to make something money is trying to make as many people as possible to believe it is money

Indeed.

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If banks strictly follow 100% reserve ratio, they can not borrow you any shell and create deposit numbers, since all those shells would be reserved at central bank, they have no single one shell at hand to lend

Indeed, but then:

1) banks don't serve any purpose. The central bank can just as well issue "deposits" directly to citizens then, and a bank cannot do anything. There wouldn't be a way to pay the salaries of bank employees.

2) no-one could borrow money, except directly from other individuals willing to lend them directly the money.

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But this is FRB, still a small trick comparing with the fact that they could create deposit numbers backed by shell, which is a double spending of shell's purchasing power. Without double spending, the banks ability to create credit money is limited by their shell reserve and multiply ratio, but with double spending, the banks can literally create as much money as they wish. With maybe only one ounce of gold they could acquire the whole world by repeating the process, no FRB needed

This, I don't understand. Their ability to do what you call double spending, is exactly the fractional reserve ratio.
They are not really double-spending it. They are issuing IOU, which are deposits. It is the fact that people consider deposits to be money, that makes that banks create money.
Deposits are nothing else but an IOU from a bank. If the bank owes me 100 shells, and the bank lends out 80 shells to Joe against a promise (a contract) signed by Joe that he'll pay back the 80 shells, then I have an IOU from the bank of 100 shells, and visibly, Joe is content with an IOU from the bank mentioning 80 shells worth. That's what deposits are. IOU from the bank.
But people accept them as means of payment, so it becomes money.

If any IOU of a credit is accepted as money, then you cannot avoid money being created each time there is someone borrowing from someone else.

Look at it this way, and forget banking.

Suppose we have a bitcoin economy. I have 100 bitcoins on an address. Now you want to borrow 80 bitcoins from me. I transfer 80 bitcoins to your address (irreversibly), but you sign me a contract that is registered on the block chain, that you will pay me 85 coins next year. I now still have 20 bitcoins on my address, and you have 80 bitcoins on your address. But I have also a blockchain registered contract where you engage in giving me 85 bitcoins next year.

Now, suppose that I want to buy a small car, that costs 100 bitcoin. If the car salesman has enough confidence in your paying back your 85 coins next year, which he values 80 coins today, then I can transfer him my 20 "real" bitcoins, and the contract on the blockchain. If he accepts your IOU as money then I can buy my car, even though the 80 "real" coins are on your address and not on mine.

Because the IOU where you promise me to pay me 85 coins next year, registered (and transferable) on the chain, is considered money.

Now, for an individual IOU, there are chances that people don't accept it as money. But if institutional IOU such as bank deposits are used that way, and people accept it as a means of payment, then it IS money, and there's nothing you can do to stop it from being considered money. And if that's the case, money creation by credit is unavoidable.

You cannot avoid people accepting certain things as means of payment. And from the moment people do, there is money creation.

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Speaking strictly, this is not exactly double spending. Some times when customer withdraw their shell, corresponding deposit numbers on their account must be destroyed, so some of those purchasing power is not duplicated, just like in a FRB system

That's what I also said. But then you need to have ANOTHER IOU from the bank.

If I have 100 shells on the bank, and the bank lends out 80 of those to Joe, it may eventually take those 80 from my account, but now the bank has to give me ANOTHER IOU worth 80 shells, because the bank really owes me 100 shells. But what's the use ? A deposit was already an IOU from the bank ! What's the point in destroying this IOU and replace it by another one ?

The point is not that. The point is that people ACCEPT as money, IOU's from a bank. When people accept that, they turn these IOU (Deposits) into money.