Quote from: bananafana on February 14, 2015, 09:26:03 PM

Quote from: Revelation on February 14, 2015, 09:02:51 PM

Quote from: bananafana on February 14, 2015, 08:58:28 PM

Quote from: ab8989 on February 14, 2015, 08:43:52 PM

Quote from: bananafana on February 14, 2015, 08:33:15 PM

Quote from: ab8989 on February 14, 2015, 08:21:20 PM

Quote from: bananafana on February 14, 2015, 08:17:01 PM

Coins only exist at addresses. A transaction takes coins from one address, and sends them to another. If you think these coins still exist, what address do you think they're at?

These were taken from various addresses, and sent nowhere. They aren't in the addresses they came from -- you can check that, the blockchain doesn't lie. They weren't sent to any new address. It's impossible for a new transaction to send them somewhere new, because they don't exist at any address anywhere in the blockchain.

Nothing is impossible. Any new version of paycoin core SW can be programmed to go through blockchain searching for all fees that were ever sent and interpret them belonging to a hardcoded wallet address that represents orion controllers. Imagine this as that the output address is just given later in the paycoin core SW rather than as programmed into the blockchain at the time when the fees were sent in a transaction. Same thing happens, just later.

(1) The coins don't exist at any address. You can't create a transaction that sends them anywhere, because they don't exist at any address that could be an input to the transaction. Anyone who thinks these coins still exist somewhere in the blockchain, go find them in the blockchain and post the address where they can currently be found. But you can't -- they don't exist at any address. Which in blockchain terms means, they don't exist at all.

(2) Nothing is impossible with a hard fork. They could do a hard fork and create special stakers that receive any number of coins they want to create, but those are *new coins*. They could add up the lost fees and create that many *new* coins. They could just as easily create a billion *new* coins.

The second point there is a very real problem, given the degree of centralization. They could do a hard fork any time they wanted (except for the fact that they have no devs left who could actually do the work). But it has nothing to do with the fees.

If paycoin ever takes off there is going to be a need to implement the fee system and the hard fork for it is going to happen. There is no question about that and the centralization guarantees the hard fork will go through. There are going to be a lot of other hard forks as well in addition to this to implement all the other missing features.

The other missing features? The features that are missing are never going to happen. The white paper is no longer relevant, not that it had any ideas that were both good and original in the first place.

They might do a hard fork to add fee collection, but why would they bother? They're swimming in paycoins from the hyper-inflationary stakers.

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The fact that they are currently not in any address is totally immaterial. Pretty soon they are back in circulation in orion controllers wallet address like all other fees as well.

The fact that they are currently not in any address = they don't exist. That's relevant. They can't come back into circulation because there's no address for them to come *from*. Whether they destroy them by actually destroying them, so they no longer exist in the blockchain, or do it by making them inaccessible in an address with no private key, they could always come along later and crate the same number of *new* coins in an orion controller or whatever. Or a billion new coins or any number they want. It's a separate issue.

Apparently, you have hard time understanding amazing posts by ab8989
In their Whitepaper one of the features are fees and sooner or later (if Paycoin is to have widespread use) they will have to implement the fees, which in turn will resurface the problem of recently "destroyed" coins.
The coins are not destroyed, they are sitting in the parameter nFees which currently are not awarded to anyone. However, this probably isn't good long-term solution.
Creating new coins in a hard fork is by no means the same as reinstating nFees, which should be an integral part of any coin and was planned to be part of PayCoin.

Sorry but no. The parameter nFees is a variable used by the wallet code in fee calculations. Once a block is generated what was in the variable nFees on whatever computer was running the wallet isn't relevant. It doesn't exist any more. All that exists is what gets confirmed on the blockchain. If the coins don't exist in the blockchain -- and the destroyed coins in this case do not exist in the blockchain, which you can verify yourself -- then they don't exist. That's how blockchains work.

If the coins are included as nFees inside transactions that get stuck in the mempool and ignored until a certain point, can't this allow them to be picked up later?

http://mempool.info/

Look at coins/fees that have been sitting around for a long time.