Quote from: TECSHARE on March 30, 2015, 10:55:43 PM

So, your argument is trust moderation isn't moderated because it is done as done as an administrator instead of a moderator? Is that where Vod gets his powers, he just puts on a police hat?

30 minutes of writing results in a wall of text, read the TLDR if you would like, if you must skip anything, skip the first paragraph as the later sections are the solutions more than the reasoning.

TLDR: Theymos has no real motivation for running a corrupt trust system, much easier ways he could achieve any nefarious goals, people use the system wrong, new system needed acknowledged by all. Your best solution and the one that would make us all happiest would be to take some time and propose a new feasible system.

Vod gets his position on default trust from Tomatocage. Tomatocage is solely in charge of whether or not Vod stays on. Theymos could send Tomatocage a PM saying, hey I think Vod is getting out of line, and Tomatocage could say, hey get bent buddy, without any rammifications. Only if Tomatocage made very flawed judgement would Theymos consider removing Tomatocage from default trust depth 1. Staff make up less than half of default trust's 1st depth. It isn't shocking that staff/admins are on the default trust system, as if we had non neutral rational judgement, we wouldn't be staff in the first place. Others are people who have really proven themselves responsible to give accurate feedback. Tomatocage/OgNasty/Badbear/Myself/Theymos/etc are all on the same playing field, we are different branches of the 1st depth. Theymos has the ability to pick who goes on the first level of default trust, but his personal trustlist also carries the same weight as everyone else's. If Tomatocage/OgNasty/Dooglus all added you to their trust lists, it would override Theymos and Badbear's exclusion of you. Selective enforcement of the rules is impossible, since there are no rules, just accepted community made guidelines. Its like a handshake, there aren't rules to a handshake, but there are generally accepted practises. Don't leave people negatives for frivilous reasons, since people are relying more heavily on your feedback, don't spit in someone's hand when they offer to shake your hand. If you get 10 people representing members of default trust, and you spit in their hands during a handshake, some will be confused, some might walk away, some might punch you, they don't all act the same, but it is generally unacceptable to spit in their hand, so they will react how they see fit. If they pull a knife on you, thats an example of when Theymos would remove them from the default trust list. How someone reacts really comes down to the extension of reputation. If Vod acts unreasonably, it reflects poorly on Tomatocage, for that reason it is in Tomatocage's self interest to only keep Vod on if he is being more helpful than harmful. If Tomatocage doesn't respond and Vod goes unchecked, then Tomatocage looses his credibility, and if it reaches the point where Theymos' pick in Tomatocage is reflecting poorly on himself, thats when someone from the 1st depth of default trust would be removed, not as retaliation. Self interest is one of the best assurances that feedback means anything. Everyone operates as independantly as possible, hopefully the trust network can branch out enough to where it nears decentralization, and all disputes are handled between the 3rd/4th/5th depths, and the mandatory people up top aren't involved at all. That is if a better fix isn't made.

I don't know Theymos that well, but I know he isn't so petty that he would make any sort of action if people disagreed with him and all of default trust added you to their list and overrode his exclusion. I'm also quite sure that he would be thrilled to not be involved in default trust at all if a new system could be designed that would allow it. If he wanted to abuse people, there are far better ways he could have done it without the trust system. Theymos isn't active in the marketplace, and he doesn't run any services, why would he need to control the forum's trust? How is being in the center of the trust system benefiting him, and how much of his time is he wasting being involved? Why put in the effort if you have nothing to gain? You were around during the Scammer tag era, he was unhappy dealing with people's issues when he had absolute power. Then you were here when the idealistic trust system was developed, where people would make their own trust lists, and default trust would be just that, a list that was there until people customized there's to suit their needs. Honestly, who uses a default setting for anything long term? Was there any sort of manipulation there, or did people just latch on to default trust and refuse to make their own trust lists? Whenever I see people fighting against the trust system, they angrily say, Remove default trust! Make your own trust list! That'll show them right? Sure... yeah stick it to the man, help us use the trust system as designed. The man has better things to do than deal with petty squabbles over people's behavior, petty fights they get in, scam attempts, etc.

To be clear, I'm not shilling for the trust system, nor am I trying to maintain my position. I don't need to lick Theymos' boots, and I could honestly give a damn whether I stayed on or not. My proposals have been public for months, I'd be happy without a trust system at all, but that isn't a feasible solution either. If I didn't think the system as it was the best that anyone has thought of thus far, I'd be one of the first people to speak out for change. Your proposals for how to fix the issues with "Staff/Admin corruption and hypocrisy" aren't feasible any more than people who want to appoint moderators to the trust system. I dont think there is any staff/admin corruption going on, but if you can figure out a viable way to get the Staff/Admins out of the tangle in a responsible matter, I'm pretty sure thats what most would want, although I can't speak for everyone, but Theymos and myself for sure.

If you want to make a difference and further your cause at the same time, help to develop a new system that

1) Protects newbies
2) Helps to detect scams
3) Doesn't put any governing authority in place
4) Is resistant to trust spamming
5) Allows everyone to leave feedback for others
6) Is not moderated
7) Huh

all of the other features I can't think of off of the top of my head.

At this point, I don't especially care what you think is going on behind the scenes. Take a minute to think about who is involved in whatever corruption you percieve. Do they have motivation for it? Could it be more easily achieved in a less public way, or in a more effective way? What is it whoever involved in these scandals has to gain. Does Tomatocage owe Vod a life debt? Does Theymos have a secret business that he is using default trust to shill for? Who is the root of the problem, and why. If you stop and think rationally for a moment, and realize that no one has anything to gain here, perhaps you will realize that you aren't being singled out, your own actions are to blame. Each case is handled differently based on the individuals involved and the circumstances, and there isn't some elaborate scheme. If Theymos hated you, couldn't he have just found some bullshit excuse to ban you rather than just excluding you from a trust system? Would you be allowed to continue to post on a private forum about issues in its managment if it was true, and we were worried people would realize it? Think about the whole situation and whether it makes sense to you. Rationally, not while you are pissed off about something.