Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 05:25:06 PM

u9y42, Thank you for posting a thoughtful piece in this thread. I've been lurking here reading both sides, and posts of your quality have been in short supply.

JJ Philips, some of your posts have also been high quality (when you're drilling down to analyze bias that underlies assumptions), but the way you talk down to and belittle people you don't agree with undermines your message. I hope you will take U9's message without feeling attacked for the purpose of continuing a productive discussion, because I'm looking forward to reading both of your posts as you fall on directly opposite side, and are both clearly knowledgeable and articulate. I just hope both sides remain civil, because I'm hoping to learn more and this discussion becomes wildly unworthy of following when either side is lobbing insults or being condescending.

Thank you jaysabi.

Quote from: Tusk on April 12, 2015, 07:37:37 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 05:25:06 PM

u9y42, Thank you for posting a thoughtful piece in this thread. I've been lurking here reading both sides, and posts of your quality have been in short supply.

Well said, I think there is an abundance of evidence that supports u9y42 argument that to date Israel has been disingenuous in its attempts to find any meaningful settlement.

What amazes me is that Israel fails to see they are now guilty of the same atrocities they claim to be victims of, the holocaust and their exodus from egypt with moses. We are expected to recognise their injustices and suffering while the palestinians does not exist, that is schizophrenic.

Definitely not; Israel is certainly on a bad path, but comparing what they are doing to the holocaust is taking it way too far. Palestinians are a nuisance, often times an obstacle to Israeli interests, and I think there are substantial reasons to believe Palestinian lives are of little consequence, as far as Israeli policy is concerned; but that's about it - despite the, often extreme rhetoric of right-wing, religious and fundamentalist madmen, it doesn't even begin to approximate the horror you're comparing this to.

That is, of course, no justification for the way Palestinians are treated. And accusations of antisemitism to stifle any and every dissenting opinion are dangerous, not only in the sense they make light of real antisemitism, but mainly because they hide the real issues - which need to be addressed, if the situation is to improve.

Moreover, and this is something I should have included above (and it deserves far more attention than I can give it in this post), I think J. J. Phillips is right in one important point, which he touched upon above: we should never forget the part other countries play in all this - the US being an obvious case, as Israel goes only as far as the US allows it (again, despite the rhetoric; and if you're American, remember that you're paying for a lot of it), but they're not alone - Europe is certainly complicit in a lot of this as well, for example, among many others.