Quote from: jaysabi on April 14, 2015, 12:16:52 AM

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

I agree with you that they are not "Islamic," at least not the form of Islam most people would consider to be most legitimate.

I didn't want "consider" to be here. I am telling they are completely contradicting Islamic rules and trachings.

Says you. They say you've got Islam wrong. It's a case of he said/she said. I don't care, I think you're all wrong because religion is stupid. All I care about is people stop killing.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

The problem is ISIS claims to be Islamic, and they have enough people who agree with them to be the force that they are.

As I said, if I claim I am president, I don't be a president. This is same thing they are doing.

Can you tell who is "enough people"? Many Muslims against it.

If you have enough people who agree with you that you are the president and are willing to kill people who don't agree with them, then you and them are a problem. That's the situation here. It doesn't matter how many people are against it. It matters how many maniacs are murdering people in your name. It matters how many maniacs ISIS has agreeing that they are Islamic and are willing to kill for it. Your denial is worthless. It stops nobody from dying.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

You and them disagree about who is correct,

I can prove they are wrong using Qur'an and Hadiths, theycan't.

I repeat, your denial is worthless. It stops nobody from dying. It's probably academically correct, and yet look how much that matters. It's not stopping them from calling themselves Islamic, and it's not stopping people from joining them when they realize they aren't following Islamic teachings. This is my whole point. We can all agree they are not Islamic, but we don't matter. The people who agree with them and will pick up weapons and murder innocent people to spread their ideology are what matters.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

but what does this ultimately matter as they're killing people?

They are killing people and I disagree with them. They shouldn't do these sort of things. But spreading false thing about Islam is matter to me.

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

The fact remains they have sympathizers and supporters significant enough in numbers to make them relevant.

They're mostly political supporters and I am sure they have political things in mind when doing these cruelty.

No, they are political supporters, and they are armed maniacs murdering people who dare to disagree with them. There are enough people murdering for them to be relevant. All the denials of how Islamic they are is not going to stop them from killing.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

That's the whole thing: they're relevant because they have support. It may not be your Islam,

Supporters mostly are political supporters and yes, it isn't Islam, yet, people say Islam just because they claim they are which is kinda stupid.

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

but that hardly matters when their purpose is to spread their form of violent Islam.

There is only one Islam. Don't claim there is 2, peace Islam and violent Islam. Only one. If Islam doesn't teach or tell any of these, how can it be Islam? They are more or likely forming new religion and have political gains.

Like it or not, there are more versions of Islam than yours. Religious movements split all the time over their values. You trying to disavow any other religion has no more merit than any other religion disavowing yours. I'm not making any argument as to what ISIS is because ultimately I don't care, I'm just repeating what they call themselves.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

They have enough people who agree with their form of Islam to be relevant.

Why? Because medias tell they are doing it because of Islam, which is wrong and people who don't know about Islam, believe it and support that statement. Spreading false thing and telling it is relevant isn't relevant.

No, it's because these people agree with their violent means. Don't blame the media, it's a copout and it's not at all grounded in reality.

Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on April 13, 2015, 07:56:47 AM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 12, 2015, 09:39:33 PM

If their form of Islam was so anathema to all Muslims, they wouldn't have enough support to be relevant.

Are you claiming all Muslims support them? Only a some Muslims who ISIS brainwashed support it and mostly are political supporters.

Contradicting Islam and claiming it is Islam doesn't make it Islam. They are obviously making new religion with their own rules. Sad

I am not claiming all Muslims support them. I am claiming enough people who self-identify as Muslim support their form of Islam for them to be able to recruit, murder, and recruit more. I'm fine with them being known as a different religion. But first they'll have to stop calling themselves Islamic. That's your problem with them, not mine.

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I am not attacking you Muhammed Zakir. I believe you wish to live a moral life under the rules of your religion, and you do not condone violence committed by ISIS. I believe their form of Islam is not in keeping with the Islam you practice. I am not even calling them Islamic. When I repeat that, I'm repeating what they call themselves. If this was a group of 10 people in the desert, it wouldn't matter. But ISIS is tens of thousands strong. They recruit from all over the world. They are able to recruit because their violence resonates with some people for some reason. And after ISIS, there is Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, and probably many other groups I don't even know about who all have similar violent ideologies and also self-identify as Islamic. This is a very troubling number of people committing violence in the name of Islam, and I already know it's forbidden by you and good Muslims everywhere, but that's changing nothing. We can all agree this is a false Islam, but that's an academic point. It does nothing to stop the movement, to stop the killing, and as a non-religious person, all I care about is that people stop killing other people. I don't care if they're bad Muslims, or non-Muslims; they're bad people, but they are drawn to a violent message, and they think that message fits with Islam for some reason, whether they are academically right or wrong seems rather irrelevant at that point to me.

Neither me attacking you. Why I am telling they ain't Muslims is to protect others. Some Muslims are brainwashed and all. If the misconception "Islamic" is removed, many people would turn away from brutal things like ISIS is doing. This would also help to decrease some of the murders. However, only way to finish this is "war" but there will be consequences on both sides. I hope these things will be solved soon.