Quote from: herzmeister on September 05, 2012, 07:20:00 PM

Quote from: neptop on September 05, 2012, 05:42:02 PM

being an Anarchist/Social Libertarian

so you aren't shocked of savage (Bitcoin powered) free markets like Chomsky is?

I didn't describe myself as a Social Libertarian because of my view on market systems. I can see that a lot of them suck and maybe (not an opinion, but to make a point) a system without so much abstraction of values (in form of money or commercial papers) would be better. I am honest, I don't know what it is. The reason I described myself as Social Libertarian is that I am for freedom and that I think it should be a right to people and as far as possible not be based on stuff like luck, having rich parents, being healthy, whatever for moral and practical reasons, like the maximum possibility that the individual can contribute to society in the most optimal way, which means the technician should get the knowledge he needs and the artist should be able to create art for minorities and give it to as much people as he likes to. I mean we are human, being social, helping others out, not being what most people call completely logic is maybe what brought us so far. I think humanity would be able to create a society where everyone is well supported without anyone having to feel like something is taken away or at least is fine about it making it an act of free will, cause like I said, humans usually are very social.

So what I meant to say is that it isn't just about currency and money to me. I mean I am currently "forced" to earn money to live, but by doing something I like I actually make more than I'd need (currently). I described myself as an anarchist, because I think people free and not be a slave, neither of a dictator of a market system, unless they really want to. Freedom isn't just about money, markets and politics though, so there are many things that would shock me more than that.

What I think is worst about the current system, both politically and financially is that people are prevented from living from work they are good at. There are people that are unemployed, but really want to work, people that were doctors, but went to another country for whatever reason and end up driving around people in taxis instead of for example creating the technology of taxis that drive on their own. I know, that's like the ideal world and maybe not completely realistic, but preventing people from working and feeding themselves and the people they love seems to be kinda stupid in a society that on the other hand "simply" wastes what would allow someone to live without doing anything at all.

Nope, I am not shocked by free markets at all. I think that a free market would be a tool that would allow us to create a society where bad things are more easily prevented. See, I don't think a capitalist is a soulless monster wanting every poor person to die. What we have now is a system where a lot of people are like moaning about how the government takes taxes, yet I guess most people would not be like "uh, who cares about this guy dying?" and some people seem like moaning, because they don't really have another reason to. I mean really, what kind of whiner is someone who complains about having to invest into a system that grants everyone including himself access to what he needs to survive? Of course it isn't great if it's like money being taken away and stuff, but seriously when it's invested into granting someone the privilege to survive by (exaggerated) lowering some number on a sheet of paper of computer screen and you don't then you must be a mentally ill person with most likely no friends. You are pretty much acting like a drug addict and I wouldn't call someone with an addiction to be free.

But like I said, it would be better if people had will to make something better and as social being that's one of the few things that doesn't come from outside. People want to help and contribute in some way, if they don't then it's usually a mental thing (including still sane stuff like adolescence or simply having a bad day). So this is another big problem of the current system. People always want to help, but they are like forced/money is taken away and so they suddenly don't want to.

And seriously, whether it is the government or whoever doesn't matter. I think Ron Paul, like many others often tend to use the term liberty in a way that reminds me of an extremist, who wants something and then forgets why and also what it really is about. You know, a bit like all the religions where people are like "we are all children of god and should love each other" and suddenly end up in wars against each other, possibly because some self-proclaimed authority says "in the name of our religion". Most governments do something similar and I don't know, maybe they don't even do that in bad faith, maybe it was their sick education, the corruption of power or whatever.

Anyways, if you think liberty is about letting people die in the hospital then I'd say you didn't get it at all.

Some people are like you aren't allowed to be nice if you are liberal and Ron Paul talks about freedom and on the other hand sometimes(!) is like "the government isn't allowed to do this and isn't allowed to do that", with arguments like that's not the government's job and maybe he is right, maybe we should get rid of the government, not talking about a violent revolution here, but more like hey, we have Bitcoin now, hey there are a lot of people who actually love what they do and the bad stuff can be done either by people who like to, by robots or whatever. And hey lots of people like to teach others what they know and want to become the best at that and so they do it. Works for open source, works for lots of people doing great work, because they are not forced to and hey all this government, capitalism and whatever stuff maybe also was made by people who just thought they could it better. Maybe it was needed, maybe it still is, but maybe we won't in future or all of this goes into a wrong direction. Again, I don't know and the reason I asked the question this thread is about actually is that I want to know. Maybe I am completely off track, chances are actually quite good with so many different opinions. However, I think I am fairly right when I say that systems we create (or at least use/follow) should make things better and are in no way a self-purpose and I don't think we should say the free market is a justification for letting people die, just not like communism, socialism or whatever.