Quote from: Fatman3001 on July 15, 2015, 02:10:01 AM

Quote from: Erdogan on July 15, 2015, 12:06:34 AM

Quote from: Richy_T on July 14, 2015, 06:35:09 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on July 14, 2015, 05:47:33 PM

You are obviusly not stupid, and yes, the value is defined not by the beer in itself, but individuals, considering it, all persons are different, so there is no yardstick, it is personal, psychological, individual. Every price you see, is the value from individuals preferring, with the help of their total life experience and individual needs, one thing over another. Is this your problem, do you think that therefore, we can not group value into two distinct types, intrinsic and speculative?

Oh, we can have many groups of value. In fact, I would say that intrinsic and speculative would surely not be enough since, in my book, intrinsic value would be an empty set. Speculative is a subset of extrinsic value since one might value something not merely because one hopes to exchange it for increased value/price later.

Now, the intrinsic properties of gold might have subjective value in the common sphere. It is shiny, resists corrosion, easily malleable, heavy (dense), all that jazz. But all those are location, time and context dependent.

At this stage, I think we both see where the other is coming from so there's little point beating it to death and there are many better places to read about the arguments. Austrian economics just tends to reject the idea of intrinsic value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Again, you seem to be fixed on the word subjective, as if it under discussion. Who talks about objective value? Not me. Your struggle with the word intrinsic, is as if you are hypnotized, and programmed to go into delirium mode when the word intrinsic is uttered.

Well your attitude is not helpful. It is destructive. It is a barrier to learning a meaningful aspect of money.

And no, there are no better places for this discussion. This is the best place.

The reason he might seem "as if [he is] hypnotized" is that that is what you are discussing. Does gold have intrinsic value? Is there such a thing as intrinsic value in economics or are all concepts of value in economics subjective? His position is a non-positivistic one.

Intrinsic value and subjective value are not opposite.

All value in economics is subjective, it is a strictly human concept, unmeasurable because it is different for every person, and it depends on everything in that persons life. Your question implies that only one of intrinsic and subjective is possible, and my response is no. Someone values something, it is subjective (it depends on the person valuing). That value can be either intrinsic to the thing valued, or the value can be decided by that individual based on the assumption that it can be exchanged for something else. That something else can also be exchange value (money value, speculative value), or it can be something of intrinsic value (value for direct use). In the end of the chain, there must be someting of intrinsic value, even if the time to exchange the money to something directly useful is deferred over generations. There is not much reason to collect money and keep them for ever, which is equivalent to destroying them.