Quote from: stan.distortion on September 16, 2012, 05:02:28 PM

Very interesting and fully agree with you on overproduction making much of our labour unnecessary.

This would put anyone who does produce under a much larger burden. Instead of huge increases on taxes on the existing structure would it be possible to buy existing production through crowd funding and use the profits to fund further expansion until the goal in reachable?

I think crowd funding is not reliable - if you are going to support a whole population, you need a strict and reliable way to redistribute the money.

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on September 16, 2012, 05:24:14 PM

Perhaps you might like ... the Occcu:

Hah, thanks for the links. I'd look into that, but it is a bit different in its concept, as it penalizes saving, which I am definitely not against.

Quote from: SpontaneousDisorder on September 16, 2012, 05:58:59 PM

1/It reduces or eliminates incentive to work
2/It diverts money from investment to consumption, reducing long term capital accumulation
3/There are no guarantees in nature, the subsistence of life does not produce itself. Man must adjust himself to the market not the other way around.

1) the incentive is still there - you want a bigger house, a nicer car and the opportunity to vacation in Maiorca? Get a job and make more money.
2) The Vienna school will disagree with you; they'd claim that you need to encourage consumption and investment comes only when you create that consumption need
3) The argument whether something is "natural" strikes me as bizarre. Society is not natural by definition, on the contrary, by creating the social contract it defies the violence inherent in nature in order to ensure a happier life for people. The market is a tool, not a living being, and as a tool it can be modified when need be.

Quote from: herzmeister on September 16, 2012, 07:05:29 PM

My main issue with it then is that most models require the "big state" solution which may become corrupt over time (see GEMA - what a great idea in its beginning, democratic and all, but look what it has become Angry

). Unconditional my ass, more and more conditions *will* sneak in through the back door, just watch.

So I'm looking for other ways to achieve something similar to a basic income guarantee. The best would be when people can issue their money themselves (think Ripple etc). Some friends and me, we're working on the concept of some kind of network economy.

About automation and technological unemployment, most libertarians will argue that your point here is a Luddite fallacy, and I agree to a degree. [...] And you'll be there then demanding an unconditional spaceship for everyone. In 500 years, maybe there'll be interstellar travel, and the new working class will be, I don't know, maybe space-time curvature architects.

Danke für den langen Post

For conditions being added over time - if you have a transparent state mechanism and popular participation through technologies (another of the Pirates' goals), chances are this will not happen. A bit idealistic, but hey, new technologies are a game changer, right?
I would be interested in looking into your concept if you want to share some info on that.
One thing that the Luddites did not reckon is the fact that Earth resources are close to being exhausted. If we continue to develop technologically, there might not be enough rare earth metals to build all those shiny spaceships. Even disregarding that, the BIG system does not only focus on consumption, but rather on the freedom of an individual to pursue their goals without fear of starving to death. But that is the part you agree with, so I will not argue further.

Now to a practical concern of mine:
One thing which I acknowledge as a problem is the inflationary pressure on prices. If everyone suddenly got 1000 EUR richer, the rent for flats would increase accordingly, as well as goods prices. So then you either have to have the state regulate such things (not a good idea?) or somehow circumvent that. I'm still looking for a practical way to do that, suggestions are welcome Wink