Quote from: etotheipi on October 01, 2012, 05:01:17 PM

I'm not arguing against having competition in the world of Bitcoin. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't exist yet, and if it does, it's not going to happen for free.

First of all, I doubt that it wouldn't happen for free. But for now, let's take your statement for truth.
I also agree with you that serious competition does not exist yet. I think most people will agree that it would be good (and in the spirit of bitcoin) to have multiple fully functioning clients to choose from.
If that is the case, then it should be one of TBF's missions to support this, perhaps even financially.
Instead, they support only ONE dev (or team), working on ONE client, which is exactly the ópposite of the above. They give this one client an even bigger lead over (possible) others. This dev that is going to get financial support is even on the board of TBF. Do you think it is likely that if another client stands up that is just as good as bitcoind or even better, that this board will decide to give less money to themselves and more to others? Even if that'd mean their own work might be overshadowed?

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And when it does, it will be with much worse intentions than this non-profit made up of people who actually care about Bitcoin.

That is just FUD. You speak of me providing no evidence to say my arguments are moot, and then come up with this.

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The complexity of the protocol and securing the fully-functioning network requires some serious devotion and skill. The current devs have been doing this for years, for free.

So it seems serious devotion and skill can come for free. That at least, has been proven so far. _{(I would even go as far as stating that you will find the most devotion, and possibly skill as well, in many of the non-corporate projects out there)}
Sidenote though: I highly doubt that if Gavin had not made a serious load of bitcoins in the progress he would have continued for so long. Just my opinion of course.

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Yes, maybe they made some money from BTC savings.

Not some. Tons.

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But no one [should] doubt their devotion to the success of Bitcoin, regardless of who they are working for or how much money they made.

Why not? Why not at least doubt their motives for this devotion? As long as what is good for bitcoin is also good for Gavin('s income), I am sure he will be really devoted. But I doubt that when the time comes that what is good for bitcoin is bad for Gavin('s income) he will still be so devoted to do the right thing for bitcoin. Perhaps I'm wrong, and if that time comes and Gavin proves me wrong I will be the first to applaud him for it.

Now, when Gavin is just one developer of many, maybe even supported by an organisation that also supports many others, that wouldn't worry me at all. Gavin would just be able to do his own thing and others would pick up where he left off, or take an alternative path.
But when Gavin is THE dev, making THE client, paid for by THE foundation (which is indirectly in the hands of THE big corporations in the market by then, mark my words), that becomes a scary thing.

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These guys are serious nerds, and seriously devoted. There's never been a reason to doubt that.

Until now.

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Except that you have, in an extraordinary and insulting fashion.

You missed all the other threads? Don't pretend it's just one guy not liking things, it's many.
Insulting fashion? I have my doubts over the motives behind TBF and I voice them. If you think that is insulting, fine. I won't even say it's insulting that you think I am insulting! Wink

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As if devs getting compensated for their time turns them into bloodlusting, selfish scammers.

I am a dev, both for a living (1) where I work on safety-critical products that millions of people use every day, and as part of two not-for-profit bodies (2). I get paid for (1), not for (2), even though (2) takes up more of my time than (1). I'm not a bloodlusting, selfish scammer, and if you pretend I said that Gavin was, then you're just putting words into my mouth that I did not say. But I'm also not going to all of a sudden demand that I get paid for (2). If I don't like the unpaid work anymore, I will go do something else. And doing so would not diminish my work I've done on those projects over the past 8 years.

But as soon as a dev starts asking for money for things he was always devoted to, it sets off alarm bells. It tells me (and I know you disagree, which is fine) that this dev has lost some of his devotion and/or the fun in what he was doing. And my advise to such a developer would not be to start asking for money, but to go do something else.

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Because of the complexity of the system, there's no way for competition to exist without salaries.

I seriously doubt that. I see brilliant programmers committing their work to NFP projects every day, in fields where their free software competes with others that are commercially exploited and their work is just as good.
But to come back to the original point: even IF what you say is true, then all the more reason for TBF to support multiple groups of devs, to actively strive to have competition, instead of trying to kill it off by picking one dev and one client.

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When it does, it will probably be supported by a profit-motivated "corporate overlord".

At least you went from "will be" to "will probably be", but it's still FUD.

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We should be happy that the first formal face to the outside world is a non-profit

Yup, very happy about that!

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made up of these guys.

Much less excited about that. Undecided

There should be no dev's on the board. If there HAVE to be devs on the board, it should be at a later stage, and devs from multiple full clients. It could pay devs, but only if it was paying multiple devs in multiple groups developing multiple clients.
It should also not have people from MtGox, Bitinstant etc, nor should it be collecting funds from big corporations. They are your overlords, remember?

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Because any other company trying to dive in like this will probably be profit-motivated, and made up mostly of people who don't actually care about Bitcoin.

And what we have now, is a bunch of profit oriented people hiding behind the not-for-profit name. Seen MtGox's yearly reports yet? Plenty of profit there. Gavin himself is going to take money from this organisation, so that's profit for him right there. I don't think Bitinstant's CEO is doing it for free either.
I am not saying they are evil and will try to harm bitcoin from the start. I'm not even sayiong that working for profit is bad, I do so myself because having money makes life a lot easier. I'm saying that I am very unsure if they will do the right thing for bitcoin when a time comes where it will conflict with their own (financial) interests. They have too much investment into bitcoin. Into the *financial* aspects of bitcoin that is.

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The reason I was so straightforward in my previous message is because you've offered no evidence that the high degree of credibility developed by Gavin&friends over the years is in question.

If I could provide that evidence, it would already be too late. I fear this evidence will come sooner or later. Not necessary from Gavin himself, but from the way TBF is set up.

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Everyone on the Bitcoin Foundation has been contributing to Bitcoin in some way, for a long time. They've promoted it, defended it, secured it, developed it, and tried to expand it. But none of this matters to you. You see that someone gets compensated for their time, and nothing good can follow.

If you read my posts, you will see that the compensation part is just one of my issues with TBF and not even the major one. It is a large part of their mission statement and way TBF has been set up that I disagree with.

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All I can say is, in order for Bitcoin to succeed in the long run, something like the Bitcoin Foundation is necessary:

No, not something like TBF as we see it now. We can do without that.

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without it, "Silk Road" will remain the public face of Bitcoin, and it will never expand. And if some organization is going to come about to try to organize, promote, and maintain the network, we should be damned happy

I mildly agree with that.

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it is these guys.

But not with that. And not in the way these guys have set it up. But that much was clear I think Tongue

Now, how about we go back on topic? As a bitcoin user, I would like to have a client that is as independent as it can get from TBF, because I do not trust TBF (which you might disagree with, but that is off-topic).
Which projects should I follow and which clients can I forget about?