Quote from: Topazan on October 10, 2012, 07:30:59 AM

I do hope you realize that women are perfectly capable of breaking familial commitments as well.

Not during pregnancy. About (late) abortion, even libertarians are divided.

Quote from: memvola on October 10, 2012, 07:57:08 AM

In the ideal free market circumstances, rational people would only procreate when the situation is manageable in itself. And I think it's a good thing.

Would it work though? Not automatically. Absolutely not. Poor people would become poorer by making tens of children, women would get more oppressed by men, the usual story. However, if we don't have nation states to impose some sort of status quo, then these problems would be solved in mere generations.

Don't say that too loud. Wink

Quote from: caveden on October 10, 2012, 08:12:41 AM

Here you make it clear why having a kid is a "disadvantage" under your values.

Not *my* values, but the values the market enforces. That's exactly my point.

Quote from: caveden on October 10, 2012, 08:12:41 AM

Try to understand something before criticizing it. Visibly you don't really get how market incentives work.
Market incentives will push people to satisfy others with their actions, in order to have themselves satisfied.

Relax, the human race will not voluntarily extinguish itself, despite some environmentalists outcries.

A woman who temporarily cannot offer her service in the marketplace cannot satisfy others, although as said, bearing a child is a service to society, but is left uncompensated, although undoubtedly, most people would agree it's a necessary service for humanity. Hence, there is a tragedy of the commons of the market here.

Quote from: caveden on October 10, 2012, 08:12:41 AM

In a free society, contracts could be made to give that guarantee, if that makes people feel better. These contract could foresee things like pensions, sharing of rights/responsibilities, conditions under which one of the parents would lose his parental rights etc. All this can be foresee in an enforceable contract. But it must be contractual (i.e., voluntary). Nobody should be forced to be a parent.

In such contracts, the woman is still in a disadvantaged position, i.e. has more to lose, which may manifest in the contract's terms in one way or another.

Quote from: JoelKatz on October 10, 2012, 08:57:18 AM

If you have some kind of point, you're going to have to make some effort to tell me what it is. I'm not going to try to figure out how this could possibly be a point of some kind. Women have the free choice to procreate if they wish to or not to if they don't wish to. I cannot see how having a choice can be a bad thing. But if you can, you're going to have to explain it.

Your thinking is too black and white here. The choice is not an easy choice, like going to the cinema tonight or not. But the biological clock women feel ticking does not mean they're enslaved to their instincts either. They of course mostly make a conscious choice. I merely state they may prefer to live in a society where they feel more secure and more rewarded for taking on this endeavor.

Quote from: JoelKatz on October 10, 2012, 08:57:18 AM

Even assuming this is true, so what? Is there some need to incentivize procreation? Is the human race in danger of extinction?

In western countries, birth rates have long been stagnating at best. States seem to see the need to incentivize with tax reliefs, family allowances etc. Overpopulation occurs in poorer countries, which mostly are also more patriarchal.

Quote from: JoelKatz on October 10, 2012, 08:57:18 AM

Is your point that if people are free they will do what they want to do and they won't do what *you* want them to do? If so, I say great. People aren't yours to experiment on and social and biological pressures shouldn't force them to do things that aren't in their interest. If that means less procreation, that's fine with me. If it means more, that's fine with me too. I don't share your need to manage how people choose to live their own lives.

Joel, don't go strawman and false dilemma. *I* don't want to force anyone to do anything. I'm merely an observer and wondering (or not) why all those libertarian conventions and festivals are essentially sausage fests.