Quote from: hazek on October 13, 2012, 05:45:02 PM

Quote from: dree12 on October 13, 2012, 05:08:50 PM

Quote from: hazek on October 13, 2012, 02:45:46 PM

Quote from: dree12 on October 12, 2012, 10:31:31 PM

This has occurred in the past with Bitcoin Foundation: Gavin unfairly maintains its post in Bitcoin Discussion, with a sticky dedicated to it, while competing foundations are promptly and correctly moved out.

This is not entirely true.

Actually the only true part is that the threads started within 24hours of Gavin's announcement I moved to Service Discussion, fully expecting to move his announcement to Service announcements as well. But I wanted to hear his agreement first, which I didn't get so I asked theymos who told me this:

Quote from: theymos on September 27, 2012, 09:52:25 PM

Gavin's thread definitely belongs in Bitcoin Discussion because this is an innovative new type of "service" and the announcement is significant to the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole. I might have left discussion about the Foundation in Bitcoin Discussion too, but moving it to Service Discussion is fine, especially since Bitcoin Discussion was getting filled with Foundation-related topics.

As you can see, there was no censorship and ever since I got this instruction from theymos I left any thread that raised an important concern about Bitcoin Foundation in the Bitcoin Discussion. You can ask Atlas about that. And as far as I know no threads other than a poll were made sticky about Bitcoin Foundation.

Also any competing foundation threads were left in Bitcoin Discussion, even an announcement of an announcement of a competing idea that turned out to be nothing really was left there.

I suggest if you are going to raise issues, at least be honest and list complaints based on facts, not on fiction.

Best Regards,
hazek

Please do not accuse me of spreading fiction. I have monitored the Bitcoin Discussion boards for some time now, and my words were the truth and nothing but the truth.

1.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen on September 29, 2012, 05:01:36 PM

hazek, you're really annoying me.

First, you edited my OP and broke all of the links changing .org to .com.
Then you sent me a PM asking if it would be ok to move this thread to Service Discussion. WTF? If discussion of the Foundation isn't a good topic for the main Discussion forum what is?

Now you spout off about 'Gavin this, Gavin that.'

It isn't easy to piss me off, but, I'm sorry, you're really pissing me off. Bounties? Really? Point me to a successful security-critical open source project where bounties pay the rent.

I haven't tried kickstarter-like fundraising? http://blockchain.info/address/17XvU95PkpDqXAr8ieNpYzSdRDRJL55UQ8 is the address for the Bitcoin Testing Project, which has received a grand total of 72 BTC, which isn't nearly enough to pay a QA grunt, let alone a QA lead.

You say "why change, Bitcoin has been working great for me!"

It hasn't been working great for me; I'm frustrated by the lack of resources and all of the distractions I have to deal with as the unelected, un-asked-for de-facto leader of this amazing experiment. I'm excited about the Foundation, because it is bringing together dedicated, effective people who all want Bitcoin to succeed.

Emphasis mine. It does not take more than this to prove that Gavin maintains the Foundation thread in Bitcoin Discussion. He neither allows the community to decide nor follows guidelines about thread placement.

2. This thread, although not anymore, was previously stickied and remained so even after I reported it. Had the thread been about, e.g., "What's your opinion on Mt. Gox", it could not have remained in Bitcoin Discussion, let alone being stickied there.

3. The precedent, and thereby the case law states, that the Foundation thread be moved out.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114737.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113649.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113372.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99396.0

These, like Bitcoin Foundation, are services, and have been moved out (rightfully).

4.

Quote

Also any competing foundation threads were left in Bitcoin Discussion, even an announcement of an announcement of a competing idea that turned out to be nothing really was left there.

Please provide evidence of this.

I'll reply to each point separately with to it's corresponding number:

1. I never disputed this as is evident in my post you quoted in the very beginning of your thread. I state "This is not entirely true.." and then proceed to explain what is true which entails me being instructed, against my personal judgment, to leave Bitcoin Foundation in the Bitcoin discussions.

2. Yes this is true, again as mentioned in my post you quoted, I stickied that thread to get more votes. It's a neutral thread, not in favor of Bitcoin Foundation or against it, but merely a poll trying to gauge the community's acceptance of it. It is also evidence that threads discussing Bitcoin Foundation are no longer moved to Service Discussions as I stated in my post you quoted was done by me only for the first initial 24 hours after the announcement was posted.

3. I agree but I already stated as much and this was already covered under 1.

4.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115388.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115303.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114297.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115785.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115024.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114911.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113842.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113823.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113735.0

My case is not that the Bitcoin Foundation is being portrayed in too positive a light (I support the Bitcoin Foundation personally), but that it is unfairly given too much attention. All these threads that are left in Bitcoin Discussion reference the Bitcoin Foundation in some way. During the BTC-E hack, the Bitcoinica incident, etc., which are similar in nature, many similar threads were created, polls were made, etc.; however, these threads were moved to Service Discussion (as it was created for this purpose). Now, we see the same controversy, but no attempt to move it to Service Discussion/Announcements.

To be honest, I would be content if the posts were moved to the correct sections and a sticky with links to all of them was left behind until the event passes from the media. But the current state in Bitcoin Discussion clearly overemphasizes the importance of Bitcoin Foundation.

At this point, I feel compelled to apologize for the commotion I have caused. Although with every move to the authoritarian direction, I find BitcoinTalk less valuable as a society, it still by far beats out every other forum by the quality of the community. I understand it is hard to please everybody as a moderator, and as I am not one myself, I have not felt the pressure from barrages of reports or demanding statements from higher moderators or admins. As such, I retract my statement that you are to share in the blame, given your difficult role of moving threads out of Bitcoin Discussion.

However, I believe others in this forum should remain vigilant. Democracy falls when the citizens give up their power, and analogously I believe that unless we, as forum users, speak out against censorship, the admins in charge will eventually control the opinions on this forum.

In accordance with that ideology, I maintain my public stance that Bitcoin Foundation should be moved out of Bitcoin Discussion. However, I will refrain from arguing more about this issue.