Quote from: 1455 on November 13, 2012, 05:50:19 PM

States are big organisations. And a lot of states were used to very bad things (I mean really bad things like genocide or willingly cause mass starvation). A state is not a good nor a bad things per se.

Normally, I would ask you "how exactly do you know that?" but this time I won't. You are very much wrong when you say that. Forgive me, but no, states weren't "made" to do "bad things" -- they chose to do these evil things themselves. You can't sit here and tell me that Hitler's government was somehow "used" to execute the Endlösung, or Stalin was duped into the purges, or Lincoln was bamboozled into executing the Sioux massacres. I'm not an idiot to believe such an outrageous and nonsensical theory, and neither are the other people in this thread.

"Governments are used by evil people to do bad things" is a false statement of belief, mere and vain apologetics to discharge / disclaim / minimize States' responsibility for the mass murders and other evil things they deliberately chose to do. The observable reality is that the evil people are in government, that they conceive and carry out their mass murderous agendas, and that you can't deny this. Your attempt to deny this is a palpable symptom of Livestockholm Syndrome -- "I can't afford to accept the reality that these abusers are actually abusers, so I'm going to invent a reason to believe that they are not."

This reminds me of the good ole' excuse "but my dad didn't know any better, that's why he beat me up" excuse, that lots of people use to apologize for abusive brutes.