Quote from: djm34 on February 02, 2016, 01:18:10 AM

Quote from: bensam1231 on February 01, 2016, 08:24:08 PM

Quote from: djm34 on February 01, 2016, 10:27:15 AM

Quote from: bensam1231 on February 01, 2016, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: hashbrown9000 on January 31, 2016, 11:35:13 PM

wish these coins would stay profitable for more than a day Roll Eyes

Just shows you how many miners are out there. Vanilla was great for about half a day, then people hopped off of other big coins or ones with private miners (like x11) and wrecked it, then they went back to their more profitable private miners.

Quote from: djm34 on February 01, 2016, 01:13:36 AM

if people weren't dumping like crazy right after mining, it would profitable longer...
hence stop dumping... have some vtc, it went several time from not profitable to very profitable, if you are patient enough
you can get an interesting deal... that the way altcoins work, but since a year it is the "dump directly on exchange" which seems to prevail hence the low profit... well sorry but this is a bit on you... (please spare me the "I have electricity bill to pay..." which isn't a good excuse...

It's not profitable UNLESS you exchange them for BTC. Otherwise you're just a bag holder. Artificial coin pricing based on people not selling coins is not a market you want to be in (happened with Burst). That means when people sell, the whole market will collapse. The coin will equalize at whatever the daily mine rate is for the coin, minus buy support. Which is usually about the same for all coins as the market and mining profitability equalizes.

The only people the coin would stay profitable for if people held coins are the people actually selling. It's a good way to screw over your fellow miners.

I have electricity to pay for is a great excuse. Miners don't mine to be bag holders. They aren't investors, that's a completely different job title. Investors buy the coin and hold it for value to increase.

and why "investors" would buy a coin which gets dumped on a daily basis, by miners ? I mean you realize there is no point in investing in something which loses value on a daily basis, because people like you aren't able to hold a little.
To keep a profitable offer, you can't have infinite supply... that's seems pretty logical to me.

You completely miss the point actually... and that's the reason why many coins went to POS, to avoid moronic miners like you... and quite frankly you are the one getting hurt in the process... because investors stop investing and you are the losing money in electricity... anyway, this is basic economy...

What do you think happens when the US prints money each and every year then spends it? or any country for that matter? You can even look at coins that are successful, like Darkcoin for instance. It gets dumped on a daily basis as well.

It's the price of using the coin, some coins can support it if they have the community and the coins being minted don't overload the buy support and the people who want to actually use the coin.

I think you don't understand why miners get paid a fee for mining. It's a trade of service. It costs electricity. Miners pay their bills and hopefully have something left over. These are the basics of a operating coin.

That aside, coins don't have a infinite supply. They're a pie. The more people mining, the less coins per person, that's what difficulty is.

Dash doesn't get pumped on a daily basis, it gets traded (that's the big difference with new and old altcoin). Mining a stable coin like dash is different from mining some of the coins around. The problem is that the rule is applied to any coin, a new coin going through that process just get killed before it can stabilize, meaning dumping such coins, just destroy your source of profit.

I understand very well what miners are paid for, but when miner are stupid enough to sell below their profitability margin, then I don't understand.
Their is a crisis in France where meat producers where they are forced to sell their product below their margins (this probably could have been avoided through better trade and union... but hey...) while cereal producers usually when the price is too low, they _wait_ and sell when the price is higher (as they can store them)... I think you belong to the second category, if you don't see where is your advantage you are a moron and you will just continue to blame devs and private miners for killing the price... Because at the end, you will complain as well, that's the irony in all that system. You have the mean to influence on the market, but you still prefer to complain when you dump for ridiculous value because others did the same...

Coins can be considered as having infinite supplies, because most of them will be dead before reaching their first halving (if they have any planned), the difficulty doesn't do to the price either, because you are not able to hold your freaking coins... so even when the supply/miner decrease, the price continues to fall...

anyway, you are mining, I am not Grin

I just make miners, your funeral Grin

I don't think at any point I have been talking about pump and dumping shitcoins whose sole purpose is arguably just for the initial jump in price followed by a dump. These coins usually have large IPOs and/or premines.

I agree dumping small coins is a bad deal, that's generally why miners usually stay away from small coins... Small coins are largely unprofitable as well so it doesn't pay to go near them, in addition to wrecking difficulty and them being highly speculative (very easy to get burned). I don't think at any point here we were talking about new small little coins that barely get on exchanges. Vanilla for instance has 12 BTC per day in volume and is a very mature coin, which is where this started from.

Miners generally DON'T sell below profitability. If a coin is unprofitable, they mine something else and difficulty goes back down. Once again you're confusing the mining process with people who are supporting the coin. Miners generally speaking aren't supporters, they keep a coin alive. Investors who want to use the coin because they think they'll make more or because they want to trade it buy from miners and hold or sell at a later time. It's a burn process, although at this time it seems as though you really had no idea what you're talking about and you're trying to weasel around a bit to sound like you know what you were talking about.

Making a product like 'meat' has nothing to do with mining or minting new coins. You can't switch businesses on a whim in the real world. The choice there is to sell at a loss or toss your product, assuming you have money left over to burn while you wait for the market to climb again. Miners don't have that problem. Miners essentially can produce any kind of 'product' they want to with the only overhead being electricity, which varies. That being said 'meat' is very vague as there is a lot of different businesses along the chain between raising cattle and when you find meat in a supermarket (also assuming we aren't talking about frozen food, even then there is burn cost)... and if we're going to throw around insults, you're a idiot to think miners who use GPUs are locked into only mining one kind of 'product' and therefore have to hold.

That is generally why it's bad to buy ASICs or buy hardware for any one thing... Say if only one coin is profitable, like Ethereum, so you buy a AMD rig because it's quite lucrative at the time. Some people in this thread noted doing it. IF Ethereum goes in the shitter, there is very little choice there between shutting down your rigs (once a coin hits equilibrium with electricity, people stop mining because they lose money) or hopefully purchasing a kernel from Wolf0.

I think you're confusing me with dead coins as well. I don't mine dead coins, I don't mine brand new coins either. Most coins die not because miners dump, but rather because they have no purpose and once people realize that all the bag holders dump them. Some coins, such as Burst for instance, are really cool, but it was just a community holding hands in hope something new and different would happen... It never did and it crashed and burned. Community holding hands only works for so long if there is no buy support or way to burn them. PoS has the same problem. People mint coins with a wallet... They eventually want to make money on those coins. If the coin isn't going anywhere and it loses buy support, the coin crashes and burns. It doesn't matter if it's PoW or PoS.

"Coins can be considered as having infinite supplies, because most of them will be dead before reaching their first halving"

No, that doesn't make sense. Nice try attempting to weasel out of that one. You are neither talking about infinite or a supply.

Yup I am a miner and it doesn't seem like you'd last long if you were. I've mentioned numerous times I stay away from small coins. Heck I've even announced coins that are profitable in this thread (when have I pointed out a super small coin?). Part of being a miner is matching the coin to the amount of hashpower you have and Vanillacoin is a pretty hardy coin, which is where this all came from.

Quote from: joblo on February 02, 2016, 04:57:46 AM

Ad far as Nicehash goes, it was certainly a disruptive force but unlike most multipools it has it's own rhythm which is good
for profit switching. Sometimes Nicehash pays higher than multipools sometimes lower. Multipools have disappeared
because they have become a commodity. Every pool is almost identical. They have mostly the same algos, same coins
and same profit swings, and now even the same interface, but it's a good one. Hashpower and zpool are no different
than yaamp was. The "alternative:" pools succeed because they have found a niche. Some are agressive with new coins,
some focus on niche algos like cryptonight, I don't know why not's not on any multipools.

I don't understand the use for merged mining. For one the merged coin is usually valueless and for another profit switchers
can simply adjust to the profitablity of the coins combined. Ules you use autoexchange to dump it's also another wallet
to manage and another coin to find on an exchange. It's like mining for gold and also finding lead. Forget the lead, go
for the gold.

I'm not sure what you mean by it's own 'rhythm'. Largely Nicehash is played by bots with the exception of occasional fixed orders made by real people and even then fixed orders are run by bots as well. Those bots have their own profitability load balancing algo running across the backside, which is almost identical to a multipool. They mine the best coins or whatever will earn them the most money, which includes mining to multiple multipools.

Nicehash is literally the biggest multipool of them all. It 'crowd sources' multipool mining to anyone that can come up with a more profitable alternative to known coins. Essentially making no coin safe unless it uses a algo that is not found there (which is quite rare). That is the eventuality we reached and when the whole 'miners holding' as speculation died out.

Merged mining helps distribute the costs of PoW while still maintaining network security and stability. PoW coins all generally equalize around the same price point, depending on how desirable the coin is. More desirable coins will be more profitable to mine because the buy support and how many people purchasing the coin will outweigh the burn cost of PoW.