Quote from: jl777 on February 19, 2016, 10:06:25 PM

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on February 19, 2016, 09:37:43 PM

It seems what ever design you contemplate employing a fee can always be gamed by an attacker so that he pays no cost.

The attacker can make his own DE and receive the fees. So then he attacks the other DEs (which are honest) 100% of the time but doesn't attack his own DE (or attacks he own less frequently) thus all users migrate to his DE. Thus he is losing much less in attack fees than he is gaining from fees.

Since more than one attacker can do this to each other, no one will use DE.
P.S. I knew that there would be a leak in fees that would maintain my conclusion that DE is fundamentally impossible. Sorry when I come to these sort of generative essence conclusions they stick.

By this logic no cryptocoin would exist.
Instead of all out war all the time, maybe some sort of truce would be made? Why would everyone running a DE want to spend all that time attacking the other DE's just to get attacked back and then nobody's works. Seems like MAD.

I notice your attack scenarios are getting more and more convoluted as now the attacker needs to run a DE themselves to make it even a potential issue. So things are improving. It also might be possible to make it so the attacker wont be able to get their fee back, but no script for that yet.

However, you must have missed my post where it is possible to identify the attacker. It would be after the fact, but that allows a reputation system to be created and as long as people are careful about filling orders from newbies, there wont be much problems.

James

P.S. Using your logic, no central exchange would exist as they would all be Ddosing each other all the time. You dont need to pay exchange fees to Ddos an website.

DDoS is not an analogy to jamming. Remember the party that goes first in your protocol locks up his funds (e.g. UXTO) for the period of the timeout refund (which is orders-of-magnitude greater delay than processing a DDoS packet and the attackers delay is asymmetrically orders-of-magnitude smaller) while waiting for the counter party to reciprocate. In bandwidth DDoS, the attacker must have enough bots to saturate the bandwidth of the victim, which is a significant resource. In malformed requests DDoS, the cost to the victim of verifying needs to the symmetric to the cost of the attacker to sign the request. I wrote a white paper about how DDoS can be ameliorated with proper design in the crypto currency setting. Please make sure you understand the relevance of the word 'asymmetry' of costs for the attacker versus the victim w.r.t. DoS.

Seems that running a DE in your original fee-based scheme (which I allege is broken) is quite simple as it only involves offering a payto address.

Sorry to be a pain, but really you should thank those who do peer review and help you from wasting your time. I'd really appreciate a more cordial and rational response. Getting irrationally upset at those who try to help you, is what the retards over in the Altcoin Discussion forum do, and I know you are too mature and do not possess that behavior. Please remember in the past when you made similar arguments about why proof-of-stake was not attackable, which ended up being wrong as evidenced by the current top-down governance of Nxt and Bitshares. Those of us who take the time to analyze and point out egregious flaws do it because we want correct solutions, not because we are haters. If those we help, hate back on us, the entire discussion forums descends into stupid noise. Please even if you have vested interests, still try to remain fair and rational. This is a scientific discussion, and let's not conflate it with other matters such as any investment you've already made in DE. I can't do my work in a rational, scientific way if I have to worry about each person's ego and vested interests that I might offend by writing rationally.

I didn't see where you could identify the attacker in your protocol without incurring any possibility of bailing out and jamming. Perhaps you can explain that more succinctly (without all the cut & choose employing Bitcoin op codes since I don't comprehend Bitcoin op codes thus I can't understand the cut & choose in the way you guys have explained it thus far, although I think I understand the concept which is to probabilistically reveal the preimage).

Any way, I was thinking about this more because I know you are invested in DE and I really want to help you find a solution. Of course I don't feel good about the situation where you are invested and it is fundamentally flawed. It is not like I get some great joy in finding flaws. I get great joy in finding solutions that don't have flaws. I can't help it that there is so much flawed work being done in the crypto currency realm. It is the nature of the beast, because crypto logic is complex and there are a lot hair-brained ideas being promulgated. For example, Blockstream's side-chains reduce the security to the weakest chain due to chain reorganizations and the fact that proof-of-work is probabilistic and thus never final (e.g. lie in wait long-con attack). Blockstream is even investing so much effort to push Segregated Witness which enables them to version the block chain with soft forks, thus it looks like a trojan horse so they can get the changes they want to enable this broken concept of side-chains. Speak these rational truths and many people get pissed off and posts get removed by the moderator.

Any way, I think I have thought of a solution for DE.

The key is to identify the attacker immediately so that all decentralized parties can apply my upthread blocking "Coin Days Destroyed" suggestion. The "Coin Days Destroyed" becomes the reference point that is signed by the owner of the resource, which thus apparently escapes from my generative essence conceptualization of the problem set.

So change to the protocol is the provider of the hash sends to the trade's counter party to sign it (hashed with the other party's UXTO address) so the counter party's UXTO can be identified. Then the hash provider (the potential jamming victim) posts this information in a timed refundable transaction to the block chain (spending to the payee contingent on releasing the hash). If the attacker never posts the reciprocal transaction on the other block chain, this enables anyone to identify that attacker and apply the Coin Days Destroyed filtering that I proposed upthread.

Note this eliminates the need for any fee. But I assume you can find some justification for a fee, such as perhaps keeping your source code for the DE app closed source and/or offering a centralized fee structure for matching orders, limit orders, etc.. You won't be able to steal funds, which afaik is the most significant advantage of DE over CE.