Quote from: Fjordbit on December 12, 2012, 04:39:58 PM

Quote from: creativex on December 12, 2012, 03:40:54 PM

Your defense of them seems to be that they're dishonest, naive idiots, but not scammers. Have I summed that up about right?

This isn't an attempt at a defense for BFL, it's an accurate accounting of what is going on so that people can use good information to make their business decisions. The problem with a lot of the comments in this topic, yours included, is that there is no temperament to reality. It's "BFL are scammorz, har har" which doesn't help anyone.

I think that the two key words in the quoted section are dishonest and naive. BFL has shown themselves to be dishonest through ommission about their delivery dates, allowing customers to continue to believe that chips would be arriving in late November when they knew that they were making clock buffer adjustments that would delay at least until mid-December. Because of the competitive environment for ASICs, it is understandable why they would do this, but it's important to know that they did this when deciding whether or not you can trust them regarding future statements. Essentially, if BFL says on January 8th that the chips will arrive soon, this aspect of dishonesty justifies a person to ignore the information until there is provable evidence that the chips are in BFLs hands. I would even go so far as to say the chips need to be integrated into a working prototype, and yochdog and the other guy go there and see it and report positively. Only does it makes sense to plan around a promised BFL shipping date.

The other word is naive and it does seem that they have some experience to gain with respect to business relationships. This is pretty normal for a new company though, and as such I think it is overboard to label anyone there as an "idiot".

As far as being a "scammer", I still feel it is highly doubtful that the intention here was to collect preorder money and then run with it with no product. However, I still feel a scammer tag is warranted and I've laid out the case for that here.

If you search my posts you'll find that I've repeatedly stated that I expect BFL to ship ASIC products eventually. That is I do not expect they'll "Vleiside" everyone that's pre-ordered with them and not received a refund yet. I do believe however that they deserve a scammer tag for blatantly and repeatedly lying about shipping dates...or "scheduled shipments" or whatever other word game they're currently using to deceive.