Quote from: Ukyo on December 12, 2012, 10:39:13 PM

Quote from: burnside on December 12, 2012, 08:10:10 PM

I think the line is "Hobbyists use their high performance gaming video cards to create it." Part of the fun is constantly tweaking it to maximize performance. Like back in the day when people used to constantly reboot their 386's, editing their DOS boot files to get maximum memory to play a game. Wink

You're right that it's in a questionable space legally, but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin. Some people do it for fun, some for profit.

Actually, at least with WoW, the company specifies that their 'virtual currenecy' is to have no real world cash value. Attempting to do so is breaking their ToS.
People reported and caught doing so, have the accounts they have invested time and money into taken away.
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
"
Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items.
Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of World of Warcraft Accounts or BNET Accounts (each an Account). You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with any Account. Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the real world of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for real money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.
"

SecondLife issues Linden Dollars that are "representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service." and is a limited license
that they maintain full control of. This is very different than using bitcoins on an asset exchange, as you are using a third party "virtual currency" that is
most commonly used in trading for fiat.
http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php
"
5. "LINDEN DOLLARS" ARE VIRTUAL TOKENS THAT WE LICENSE
5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

The Service includes a component of virtual tokens ("Linden dollars" or "L$"), each of which constitutes a limited license permission to use features of our Service as set forth below. Linden Lab may or may not charge fees to acquire or use Linden dollars, and these fees may change at any time.

When you acquire a Linden dollar, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Linden Dollar License") to use the Linden dollar as a virtual token to be held, bartered, traded and/or transferred in Second Life with other users (and/or Linden Lab), in exchange for permission to access and use Content, applications, services, and various user-created features, in accordance with these Terms of Service. The Linden Dollar License is transferable by the holder to any other user, provided that both users comply with these Terms of Service, maintain their Accounts in good standing, and are not delinquent on any Account payment requirements. Except as expressly permitted by this Agreement or otherwise expressly permitted by Linden Lab, the Linden Dollar License may not be sublicensed, encumbered, conveyed or made subject to any right of survivorship or other disposition by operation of law or otherwise, and you agree that any attempted disposition in violation of these Terms of Service is null and void. Linden Lab may revoke the Linden Dollar License at any time without notice, refund or compensation in the event that: (i) the Linden dollar program is suspended or discontinued; (ii) Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the holder's Account; (iii) Linden Lab imposes an expiration date on usage of Linden dollars in compliance with applicable laws and regulations; (iv) the holder's Account is terminated for violation of these Terms of Service; or (v) the holder becomes delinquent on any of that user's Account payment requirements, ceases to maintain an active Account or terminates this Agreement."

Also, VERY importantly.. they state they can, at any time, take your Lindens away, which you simply can not do with bitcoins outside of the site. They also state that 'Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time.'
"
You acknowledge that Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the right to manage, regulate, control, and/or modify the license rights underlying such Linden dollars as it sees fit and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of this right. Linden Lab makes no guarantee as to the nature, quality or value of the features of the Service that will be accessible through the use of Linden dollars, or the availability or supply of Linden dollars.
"

Both sites do definitely claim, or assert that their 'virtual currencies' have no monetary value.
I have even considered doing a similar thing for bitfunder, except that no one wants to be told that the moment they "convert" their BTC in, that it has 0 value until they transfer it out. Especially with the GLBSE nightmare. People want to be able to have recourse.
Neither site, WoW, or even SecondLife will directly let you exchange their 'virtual currency' to something else to be withdrawn.
Even SecondLife, LindenLabs directly will not convert your Linden Dollars to a fiat at any rate and give it to you as a withdraw.
(This would violate their own ToS stating their 'virtual currency' is not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time'.)

Having experience personal experience as a business owner for 12+ years, and having to see many Judges over the last decade to enforce contracts, I can share at least one thing I have definitely learned, is that you can 'play it' however you want with a judge. In the end, they look at it in a very factual, and straight forward manner, and they tend to look for people who play 'games' to avoid illegality, and will compare end results, not the means.

Object A
1. A shareholder of a publicly traded company spends their money to buy into shares of a company.
2. A shareholder of a publicly traded company get's to vote on company events.
3. A shareholder of a publicly traded company may earn dividends based on profits the company has hearned.

Object B
1. A user may have to spend money to but bitcoins to bbuy litecoinglobal's 'virtual shares'
2. 'Virtual shareholders' vote on actual events of of Litecoin Global.
3. 'Virtual shareholders' will receive actual profits from Litecoin Global via a 'real shareholder'.
4. 'Virtual shareholders' may at any time, in bulk, and without charge, convert 'virtual shares' into real ones.
5. 'Virtual shareholders' are being provided detailed company accounting data.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' 'actually' own a share of "the domain liteocinglobal.com, the website code, the customer list, and anythiing left in the site wallet.' and may receive these very real items in whole or part should litecoinglobal.com operate at a loss for more than 30 days. as stated in the LTC-ASSET 'stockholder agreement'.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' are liable for the 'Estimated startup costs' including up to $1,780 worth in company formation fees in the form of a clawback which would be paid by 'Virtual Shareholders' in the form of a debt, lowering the total profit paid out as dividends, should the corporation become successful.

These 'Virtual Shareholders' sure do have a lot of 'real world' responsibilities and promises for being a completely 'fake' system for 'entertainment' purposes only. Wink

My lawyers have always agreed on one thing. Judge's will go by 'the sniff test'. If it smells funky, it probably is.
This my friend, would _not_ pass the sniff test.

There is a possibility that the other side would call in shareholders, asking how they came to own the 'virtual shares',
including buying the bitcoins, the bitcoins held value worth selling on an open market for, how much they "paid"
for the shares, if they fully expected to get actual profits distributed to them from litecoinglobal regardless of if they
are labeled as 'virtual' and who actually gives them the payments, and if they felt that these payments based on the
profits were a "promise" of value to be paid.

Quote from: burnside on December 12, 2012, 08:10:10 PM

The shares represented on LTC-GLOBAL are proxied shares held by a nominee shareholder. I have offered up a trade for anyone holding a large amount of shares of their LTC-GLOBAL proxied shares to actual shares held and registered with the corporate secretary.

This contradicts the websites own terms, where it states 'No assets on the site are to be considered real.'. In this case,
as you have clearly stated, the shares of the litecoinglobal asset are true shares being proxied by a nominee shareholder,
and may be traded evenly for actual held shares of the registered corporation in bulk.

The end result is, which the Judge's care about the most, is that the 'virtual shareholders' of litecoinglobal have the
same promises, and rights as a real shareholder, and is being traded in a public open market outside of any regulation,
having the option to (without any cost) evenly trade these 'virtual' shares for real ones, leaving the only difference
being that someone tagged the word 'virtual' onto them. This does not make them 'not real shares'.

Simply telling the judge that there is a "fake" service that manages the 'virtual shares' that act in good faith as actual
shares... well. I will stop beating a horse, dead or not. For the rest of the site, that is fine, but for your own real corporation,
it just sounds bad. (to me. of course I may be wrong, but it is my opinion.)

I have known many lawyers, and have never had one say "Yeah, it can look questionable, but we can fight it."
(Well.. there was one... there always is.. man, he made a LOT of money off that odeal. Wink

Was the first time I learned the
hard way about this stuff.)
Generally the response is "Well, if it looks like a dog, walks like a dog, and barks like a dog, I would't want to go to jail for try to sell it as a cat."

Quote from: burnside on December 12, 2012, 08:10:10 PM

If you can't trust your issuer, then the asset holds no value anyway.

Oh.. they trust them.. Until something goes terribly wrong. Then it all goes down hill from there. Does not mater if the issuer is doing what they think is right, or not.

Toward your first point(s) I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding. I am not Blizzard nor Linden. I act more like Ebay, Craigslist, or any of the other 100's of virtual swapping sites setup to trade Blizzard and Linden virtual assets independently. As such, whatever Blizzard or Linden state in their ToS has zero relevance to me or my platform. All the quoting you did from their ToS, etc, means nothing to me. (I play neither and have never agreed to any such ToS.) The bitcoin ToS on the other hand, might have some impact... but I'm pretty sure that boils down to a GNU license that is effectively "do whatever you want with it, you agree to hold the developers harmless should anything befall you", etc. And in support of my argument that everything is virtual is the very fact that if those developers wanted to, they could pull the carpet out on you just as easily as Blizzard can with WoW gold, or Linden can with their "currency".

Further, we are not exchanging virtual goods for real currency. So there is no exposure there either. The company does not profit in currency. The company profits in commodities. That the shareholders get a chunk of these commodities as a benefit of their shares doesn't magically equal income. The shareholders profit when they convert their commodities to currency somewhere else. I think I had this discussion in the Giga thread a while back, discussing how to report crypto-currency income via 1099's, operation of barter exchanges, etc.

Your point regarding shareholders of the virtual world having a say in the real-world operation of the real world company is an interesting one. I see your point, but I am not sure that such an arrangement is without precedent. Many organizations offer memberships, those members have privileges defined by their membership, and many times part of that is providing input toward the direction of the company strategically.

Addressing most of the rest of your post, you are absolutely correct that if a Judge gets annoyed at us, he'll do whatever the heck he wants to us. (or just me.) We are ALL under that umbrella in the USA. Ever heard of the "three felonies a day" theory? (see: http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx ... or google "three felonies a day".)

All I can do is try to minimize our exposure to that risk. (and in this case, minimize the exposure of the LTC-GLOBAL shareholders, asset issuers, and users.) My efforts as a founder of this particular small business to bootstrap a self-sufficient, self-sustaining entity have all been toward that goal. No doubt there is a long way to go, and I'm always open to good ideas. Wink

Cheers.