Quote from: BARR_Official on March 01, 2016, 03:48:42 PM

Quote from: BARR_Official on March 01, 2016, 01:51:05 PM

Quote from: cjmoles on March 01, 2016, 08:10:58 AM

It takes the laborer eight hours to create a product for the capitalist. The capitalist then offers that product back to the laborer for twelve labor/hours.

If that was true, the laborer would just "create a product" and sell it to another laborer for 12 labor/hours.
Maybe you've left out some important details?

What you've described makes "laborers" look like complete fools,
obviously in need of your control to save them from their own choices.

The truth is that a free market allows everyone to engage in voluntary exchange.
Whatever deal the laborer makes, he makes it freely because he feels that it is beneficial to himself.

But you don't want the laborer to be able to decide what is best for himself.

And that is what socialism is about:
taking away people's freedom, their power of choice,
and giving all that power to a few people.

It's a ridiculous lie to say that people work 8 hours and then owe 12 hours.
No reasonable person can honestly believe that.

For one thing, workers don't buy all the products they make themselves.
So it wouldn't matter even if it did cost 12 hours to buy something that took them 8 hours to make -
unless it's something they absolutely must buy again and again every single day of their lives.
But that would be stupid, not to mention impossible.

The typical reality is something more like this:
- They go to the factory and make things
- They get paid for their work, and they can't find anyone in the world to pay them more
- They don't ever have to buy the things they make, unless they want to
- It's cheaper than what they could have made by themselves, thanks to "the capitalists"
- It only costs the worker 6 hours to buy the product that would cost them 24 hours to make at home
- The only time their money and labor is taken forcibly from them is by the government
- The government takes about 16 hours of their labor each week, you want to increase that
- The workers and the employers both contribute value to the world
- They both respect the other's freedom and help each other fulfill their needs
- Money-grabbing socialists contribute nothing

1) Why would a venture capitalist pay a laborer to create a product that the capitalist is going to sell for the same amount it cost to produce it? That's not how the market works! The capitalists sell the product at what is called a "markup." It is usually much greater than the 8/12, on average, than I included in my example.

2) When I say laborer, I am talking about anybody in the labor pool....so, if one laborer produces broomsticks and another laborer produces mop heads, they don't necessarily have to buy the exact product they produce to lose the value of their labor because we're looking at the pool in its entirety. The broomstick laborer will need a mop head and the mop head laborer will need a broomstick....therefore, their labor/hours are still spent in proportions unequal to the rate they are paid. That's how the system works.....it is a fact, not an opinion.

3) When I am talking about the "market" I am not referring to any type of governmental structure....economic systems and governance systems are two distinct entities. Many confuse the two because they are often interrelated in rhetoric.

4) It was asked why the laborer would work for the capitalist if the laborer could just go out and produce the product on their own....the capitalist owns the means of production....that's what makes them the capitalist. Therefore, the rich get richer (they own the means of production), and the poor get poorer (they're not receiving the true value of their labor).

Now, I have no opinion on which economic system is best....I'm just pointing out some facts to explain why the gap between the very rich and the very poor is increasing. That's all.