Quote from: af_newbie on March 07, 2016, 06:28:35 PM

Quote from: BADecker on March 07, 2016, 05:13:28 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on March 07, 2016, 06:12:13 AM

Quote from: BADecker on March 06, 2016, 09:46:34 PM

Not an assumption. A faith thing. ...

and the few chains that he does make are so essentially tiny compared with all the cause and effect processes that God has made in the universe...

...

cause and effect might be meaningless prior to t=0. All of the properties (laws/constants/dimensions/time) of our universe were probably undefined before t=0.

True. The universe did not exsit before time.

Quote from: af_newbie on March 07, 2016, 06:12:13 AM

Maybe with big bang, space-time came to exist in our universe and it did not exist before that. If that is true, then God could only exist when t>0 because when t <= 0, existence (of anything) was not defined/meaningless. And we don't see any evidence of any Gods when t>0.

Why talk the if's of the big bang? Nobody has proven that it existed. And lots of people have good evidence that it did not exist. Google "electric universe" to find sites where you can see the info that collapses big bang theory.

God existed outside the universe prior to Him setting time and the universe in place. Now, He still exists outside of time and the universe, even though He has a presence inside the universe as well.

Why talk "God?" Because science has proven that God exists, even though science hasn't proven big bang exists, or even could have existed.

Quote from: af_newbie on March 07, 2016, 06:12:13 AM

Humans need a cause for everything. This need is in our nature. It helped us survive in the past, and it advances science and technology today.

But the t <=0 conditions might not be intuitive to us because of our biology. That is why people fill this shortcoming with God.

This is true. Even if science had not proven God to exist, the very nature of the complexity of the universe strongly suggests that He exists. People operate by what they perceive, or at least by what they think they perceive.

Cool

You misunderstood. My contention is that people invent God concept because they think everything has to have a cause, even before big bang. That is where their logic fails them as it is hard to imagine conditions outside of our universe with no physical laws or time. Cause and effect have no meaning before t=0.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were expressing, however...

First, big bang as the theory exists, is lacking the idea of intelligence and emotion. Intelligence and emotion are part of the universe. Therefore big bang, if it existed, must have had intelligence and emotion. Thus, big bang theory is inaccurate, and big bang probably didn't exist at all. For sure it didn't exist according to what big bang theory suggests it is.

I agree with the idea that people logic fails them with regard to things outside everything, which is what "universe" means. We say the words, "outside the universe," but we don't understand the concept of what we say.

Cause and effect as a unit have no meaning before time or the universe. But cause does have meaning. The universe is the result or effect of the Great First Cause, which, because of the nature of the universe, also fits our definitions of "God," but at least the result of God. The first cause may not have actually been God. The first cause may have been something that God created.

Cool