Quote from: conv3rsion on February 22, 2013, 01:46:24 AM

Quote from: hazek on February 22, 2013, 01:27:54 AM

Quote from: mpfrank on February 22, 2013, 01:16:19 AM

I don't understand the argument some people are making that the block size limit is OK because the main chain will only be used for relatively rare high-value transactions while new blockchains will arise to serve the masses. Why would Bitcoins on the main blockchain hold their value if new blockchains are popping up left and right? A few die-hard curmudgeons who don't want to change the rules isn't enough to keep the market price propped up.

You idiot.

You really didn't understand anything did you? Did you even read my OP? Did you understand what it was about? It's not about a rule change btw..

The problem isn't that we, as you call us "A few die-hard curmudgeons who don't want to change the rules", don't want to change any rules. The problem is that this particular rule change is likely going to have consequences that will change Bitcoin from what it is today to something else. Right now Bitcoin is a decentralized peer to peer payment system and a currency without a central authority. By removing the block size limit there is a very real chance it will change into a centralized payment system with a currency with a central authority, a system that you no longer have any control over like you do right now.

If you're fine with that, then I don't understand what you're doing here. Paypal meets your how many transactions you think Bitcoin is suppose to handle on a daily basis just fine. Just don't cry to them if you don't like their rules because if you let Bitcoin become impossible to be in your personal control that's exactly what will happen, other rules that you wont like.

And that, you idiot, is the point of my OP. To remind people that if you can't somehow validate what rules are being validated on the network, if you aren't an equal peer on this network, you don't matter and what you want doesn't matter.

In the worst imaginable case, the ability to validate the currency becomes more expensive, not impossible. As long as it is not impossible, Bitcoin does not become a centralized payment system and you still have sovereign control over your money. Its still peer to peer, at worse its peer group to peer group. Of course this won't happen, because the devs are well aware of the dangers and are reasonable people who continue to put the technology and its users first. Reasonable people can come to compromises that provide for the greatest benefit for all parties.

To your other point, Paypal is a shitty comparison that does not meet people's needs because

A) My funds can be seized
B) I cannot send money to people in specific countries
C) It is not pseudo anonymous
D) The fees are too high to enable micro transactions
E) The fees are too high to provide adequate competition with other merchant processors
F) Paypal places artificial limits on withdrawals
G) Paypal can be much slower than Bitcoin despite being centralized
H) I have absolutely no say in any rule changes that Paypal makes

People saying that Bitcoin shouldn't aim to replace Paypal have no idea how badly Paypal sucks and how much better for humanity a solid Paypal competitor with Bitcoins advantages would be. Nor do they seem to understand or care about how much more important of a disruption that would represent than the "just slightly cheaper" wire replacement service that Bitcoin is designed to become with a hard block size limit of 7 transactions per second.

I know you want and demand sovereign control over your money. I do not believe that is in any danger.

The second Bitcoin becomes centralized, all those things can arbitrarily change and I have almost no doubt they would change sooner rather than latter when the government comes knocking. You seem to forget that Bitcoin offers these rules only because there are no doors for the government to come knocking on, point guns at people's faces and demand them be changed, it's just peers in a network. Not so anymore in a centralized network.